66 Comments:
Which is funny because the older gentleman who sold me a bagel this morning actually said, "You're darn tootin!" when I asked about whether or not I could get it toasted.
Then the woman behind me said, "ish."
You have to love the Minnesota speak....
»» Submitted by »»» ironic at 12:25 PM on February 12
Well, I think you exaggerate the author's use of regionalisms, but my complaint about the piece is that it is so introductory. Don't NYTimes readers have acces to Wikipedia?
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 12:22 PM on February 12
Anyone who says "You're darn tootin" is doing so ironicaly. Anyone. Even my grandpa, who doesn't understand irony.
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 12:34 PM on February 12
I never really got irony either.
I will turn in my hipster card now. But I'm keeping my scenester card.
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 12:34 PM on February 12
I don't think it's purposefully belittling as much as it's just uninformed, this is exactly the kind of piece that a lazy reporter spits out. The 'darn tootin' stuff tries to create the (inaccurate) image of Minneapolis as a Midwest-minded city with semi-sophisticated reasons for visiting -- Minneapolis has Mary Tyler Moore!
Of course, there are about a thousand other, much more interesting reasons to visit Minneapolis/ St. Paul in February that would've been worth mentioning, like the Red Bull Ride in the skyways or the Art Shanty project, but whatever.
»» Submitted by »»» taylor at 12:24 PM on February 12
(Sigh)
The article's not that bad.
We do have an accent.
Get over it.
»» Submitted by russ at 12:56 PM on February 12
Submitted without comment: "...Masa, a mostly white minimalist Mexican restaurant that is favored by the moneyed hipsters of Minneapolis..."
»» Submitted by Luke at 1:08 PM on February 12
You could say that we have an accent, but I do remember reading an article somewhere that said Minnesotans also speak the purest form of American-English.
A few years ago I went down to South Carolina, and it was very odd being told "I thought I detected a bit of an accent." Accents are for other people! ;-)
»» Submitted by Toring at 1:13 PM on February 12
Minneapolis "increasingly cool," sez the NYT travel scribe?
A fella could do worse.
»» Submitted by just plain Bob at 1:26 PM on February 12
Are we all looking at the same thing? Because I just read an article about the Minneapolis skyways.
»» Submitted by »»» alexis at 1:32 PM on February 12
The purest form of Standard American English is said to be found either in Ohio or Kansas. Minnesotans definately have an accent.
I didn't find the article offensive in any way, except in its boring crappiness.
»» Submitted by »»» Chul at 2:27 PM on February 12
The accent gets thicker the further you move into rural Minnesota. Twin Citians rarely have a strong enough accent to be worth commentary, just as Manhattan residents often have much subtler New York accents that those found in the outer Burroughs. I have noticed this phenomenon countrywide.
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 3:26 PM on February 12
I hate it that Minnesota has to look to either coast for some kind of approval.
Also, I second the boring crappiness remark about the story.
»» Submitted by j at 3:38 PM on February 12
Here's Karlen's piece from last year. It ran Feb. 11 2005.
»» Submitted by »»» matt at 4:20 PM on February 12
Minnesotans do have an accent even though they seem to think they are above such things. Futhermore, when I was in journalism school I learned that to be a successful national television news anchor you have to learn to speak like you're from Dubuque, because Iowans have them ost neutral "accents."
But yes, this was just another article about skyways. It's funny though, I didn't know until Thursday that you could skyway from 4th street to the Target store. Hey, I just verbed a noun!
»» Submitted by Kevin from Minneapolis at 4:46 PM on February 12
"So why does he persist in belittling the Cities and portraying us as provincials who "actually say, 'you're darn tootin!'"'
Because the Twin Cities are a backwater whether anyone cares to admit it or not.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 5:05 PM on February 12
Any coverage is good coverage. Nice hit for Amy to get quoted in this piece.
»» Submitted by Rob D at 5:36 PM on February 12
Maybe she'll get noticed by dispensers of that Big-time New York Money. She's gonna need it because Mark Kennedy is going to raise Big Bucks. Bush will be in the air and everywhere around Minnesota.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 5:45 PM on February 12
j you are my new best friend!. Fuck the coasts is what I say, or at least fuck looking for approval from them.
And Twin Citians do have noticeable accents. And suffixing 'ish' to things is awesome.
»» Submitted by »»» Chul at 5:50 PM on February 12
"Fuck the coasts is what I say, or at least fuck looking for approval from them."
Heard that a lot when I lived in the south (Georgia). 'Damn Yankees and their snooty attitude! Come down here tellin' us how we outta live! We don't care how you do it in New York!'
»» Submitted by The Rat at 6:25 PM on February 12
That has to be some of the most infuriating crap ever. You Betcha!
»» Submitted by Ben at 7:37 PM on February 12
Neal Karlan makes my eye twitch, not in a good way.
»» Submitted by sugar at 7:47 PM on February 12
Seemed to me, he said some rather complimentary things despite its tone.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 8:15 PM on February 12
It was a travel story in a daily newspaper -- did you expect a scathing review?
Anyway, Karlen lives here, right?
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 8:26 PM on February 12
Hey- if we can get a positive article in the New York Times, encouraging people to come and visit the Twin Cities- I'm all for it. I think it's cool.
Are there better things he could have highlighted? Sure.
But it's an article for people who don't know about the Twin Cities. Everyone I know who's never been here finds the skyways fascinating. And I still haven't been to Masa... it's right across the street from my work.
nice link!
Masa is such a weird choice to highlight. Food is probably as much personal taste as any art form, but man, Masa is boring.
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 8:40 PM on February 12
Yeah, I thought Karlan lived here, too. Oh, we'll never live down Mary Tyler Moore and "Fargo"-like references, but at least we got some cool creds sprinkled in there. He forgot Jeune Lune as another top notch repertory theater (they won a Tony Award, too) but it's hard to cram all of it in a whistlestop tour of an article.
»» Submitted by FuzzUnit at 8:40 PM on February 12
I guess I wouldn't want a real insider's look at Minneapolis in a travel section anyway. When I lived in New Orleans, tourists were always trying to track down where the locals went, and it was pretty annoying. You've already got Bourbon Street, isn't that enough?
I mean, there are already enough Minnesotans crowding Nye's and the Bryant Lake Bowl and other local favorties without adding New York tourists to the mix.
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 9:52 PM on February 12
Well thanks a lot. Now you've posted Nye's and Bryant Lake Bowl on the internet for any New Yorker to find.
»» Submitted by »»» matt at 11:05 PM on February 12
Even if Karlan raved about Minneapolis being "THE place" to visit, somehow I don't think we'd have to worry about tons of New York tourists crowding our cornfed butts out at BLB or Nye's, esp in the dead of winter. That would be the day! Someone just wrote about Grand Forks in the NYT travel section last week....are there takers lining up to get there? Prob not.
»» Submitted by FuzzUnit at 11:02 PM on February 12
Nye's and Bryant Lake Bowl is all we have for Insider's Minnesota treasures?
It's looking bleaker than I thought around here.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:03 PM on February 12
Wait, what? Grand Forks, New York Times, what?
[Google.com. Tap, tap, tap.]
Hah! It was Karlan who wrote about Grand Forks last week too.
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 11:22 PM on February 12
And in that one he leads with a "you betcha"! I'm not even kidding!
I rest my case.
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 11:23 PM on February 12
Yeah, I go to school in South Carolina. I don't get too much crap for my accent. Only when I say "pop" and I pronounce "bag" weird. Swear to god though, everytime I say I'm from Minnesota, I get the response (In an awful MN accent) "Ohh yah, Minn-eh-soh-ta! Why'd you come here?"
Sometimes I ask myself the same thing... people totally underestimate how amazing Minnesota is. My favorite has been watching Mighty Ducks down here and being the only one laughing at the "cake-eater" comment to Adam Banks. It's like my our state's own little inside joke. Oh, and I really miss Chipotle.
»» Submitted by MNintheSouth at 11:26 PM on February 12
I withdraw my positive comments about the Minneapolis article. Come on now, two "you betcha" references in two consecutive articles? Even I'm more creative than that.
»» Submitted by »»» jderusha at 11:42 PM on February 12
Minneapolis is a lousy place to visit, but a good place to live.
»» Submitted by Brian at 12:41 AM on February 12
Interesting that Amy K. got woven into the fabric of that article. Why, outta all the people, would she really matter when it comes to pitching Mpls as a place to visit? Interesting agenda to work in, as I can't see outsiders being too terribly interested in our local politics. I notice NYT writers do that quite often (read: giving their friends, allies, colleagues center stage in a rather nondescript kinda way).
»» Submitted by FuzzUnit at 3:03 AM on February 13
" I notice NYT writers do that quite often (read: giving their friends, allies, colleagues center stage in a rather nondescript kinda way). "
Last August when Adam Clymer decided to do a story on fly fishing in Iowa, he looked to John van Vliet, who occasionally writes for the Times and lives in southern Minnesota somewhere.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 8:35 AM on February 13
"with vocabulary I've only encountered in Fargo (the movie, not the city)"
Well, I guess if you haven't encountered it it must not be true.
I am a lifelong Minnesotan (Minneapolis being the farthest south I've lived, as well) who has recently noticed that there is a fairly strong contingent of Minnesotans, most of whom are denizens of Minneapolis, who are snooty and defensive and want to be in some class of liberal elites that eveyone in the country is just dying to impress and whose approval everyone wants to gain (I must note I am a liberal, too).
Minnesotans have accents. They are refelected in the article and popular culture, even refelected accurately sometimes (the Cohen brothers are from Minnesota, for crying out loud). If you embrace the reality of where you live and the people you live with, the portrayal will cease to be demeaning because many of the people who have the Minnesota accent are helpful and kind even if they are a little high-and-mighty sometimes.
I've lived in Fargo/Moorhead, St. Cloud, and International Falls. People in every city I've lived in, including Minneapolis, talk at least a little like the characters in Fargo the movie or A Prairie Home Companion. The most provinical aspect anyone ever shows is taking offense to even the slightest chariacature rather than laughing at themselves a little and moving on like grown-ups do.
Geez that was long.
»» Submitted by B at 9:01 AM on February 13
Karlen's been writing this sort of drek for the Times forever. In 1998, City Pages declared him the Twin Cities' "Best Hack." Here's the entry:
Neal Karlen
For several years now, Karlen has covered his home state for the New York Times, and his most distinguished achievement might be 1995's "Greetings From MINNESOBER," a deep and contemplative look at the 12-step culture of our fly-over state. A year later, he impressed the hometown crowd with "If the Shoe (Snowshoe?) Fits, Well...", another ambitious and impeccably researched essay on the state's profound discomfort with the stereotypes in the movie Fargo: "Calvin Trillin once termed this kind of Midwestern sensitivity 'rube-o-phobia'--the paranoia of common folk who believe the world regards them as hicks," Karlen wrote. Now, City Pages has never been accused of being a booster for the home team (check out the other 51 issues of the year), but Karlen, a writer who returned to our Republic of Tundrastan after an abortive freelance career in New York, need not manufacture a fictional provincialism for out-of-towners--especially when a more nuanced and insidious one already exists. Still, these are quibbles from the past, and we would be remiss not to celebrate the most recent examples of excellence from our finest literary son: namely, his co-author credit for Jen-X: Jenny McCarthy's Open Book. It is the following phrase which clinched Karlen's win in this category: "Minutes before I walked uninvited into Playboy magazine headquarters for the interview that would change my life..."
»» Submitted by Mr. Blasthead at 9:38 AM on February 13
This thread is "for cute"!
»» Submitted by Henry at 9:48 AM on February 13
It must be fabulous to be as grownup as B. I suppose grownups are too busy to read something with their full powers of college-level comprehension before they venture their opinions because neither my post nor the article cited said anything about accents. Accents and hokey colloquialisms that reinforce condescending stereotypes are not the same thing, B. I have lived full time in the Twin Cities since 1981 (in posh liberal-elite neighborhoods such as 26th and Pillsbury and pre-gentrification Ramsey Hill) and I never heard anyone utter a "you betcha" or a "you're darn tootin'" until I saw Fargo, which was released in 1996. Incidentally, B, maintaining an air of airy superiority is much more convincing if you know how to spell big words like "caricature."
The TC best Hack?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
»» Submitted by »»» taylor at 10:09 AM on February 13
Quit being so insecure. Regional dialects, or your determination to conquer them, is not a measure of intelligence. Why try so hard to deny "hokey" colloquialisms? It's what we all sounded like before TV.
»» Submitted by Cres at 10:12 AM on February 13
I've always wondered why anyone would prefer to be seen as someone who loudly, vehemently protests the idea that we say "you betcha" instead of embracing it. Is it not metropolitan enough...too outstate?
»» Submitted by jane at 10:18 AM on February 13
'the heck ya mean?
i love everyone's accent here. it's a bit like the upstate NY woodsy kind of accent i grew up around, only a lot easier on the ears and doesn't make me cringe. if you want to hear an accent that'll make your ears bleed, spend a bit of time in New England. i sure don't miss it. i love talking about my favorite baseball team, but i don't like listening to people call them The Red Sawks.
argh!
»» Submitted by »»» honeybun at 10:26 AM on February 13
I have no IDEE-R what you are so upset about!
I may have to issue a Subpeen-ER to get you to appear.
»» Submitted by bud at 11:07 AM on February 13
Smarminess losses all effect when there is a misspelling so I'll drop the smarm like a good grown-up should.
I don't mean to come off as superior. I am superior to no one. Just look at my bank balance; it's the truth. But I do think there is a little of the pot calling the kettle black in discussions along these lines and your initial post is but a minimal example of greater overall trend.
There is a New York provincial elitism in which all things outside of New York are merely quaint. The article was reflective of it. The article and the elitism are crappy.
However, there is also a Minnesota provincial elitism in which all the world outside of Minnesota (Minneapolis/St. Paul especially) is secretly jealous of us and our enlightened ways and really want to be us. It usually includes an aspect of fanatical devotion to "The U", though not always. It often involves a great knowledge of state rankings. This elitism is crappy as well.
"You betcha" and "darn tootin'" don't seem very daming indictments to me. At least when someone wants to portray idiocy they don't slip into our accents and colloquialisms. The South gets that.
And again, many, many Minnesotans use these colloquialisms. Even sophisticated urbanites like you and me.
»» Submitted by B at 10:54 AM on February 13
guy's gotta make a living. nice work if you can get it! poor neal has to pay the bills, too. i'm amazed he can still look at MN like a beginner, in order to write that stuff.
the times has a few of these dudes on the permanent dole, a couple of them with minnesota roots. another guy, verlyn klinkenborg, gets trotted out every time they need some hayseed, grass-chewing, dirt farmer to weigh in on grackles and oat chaff. the klinker is from iowa, but rolled a few colleges in MN, including my alma mater.
»» Submitted by hopped up on goofballs at 11:45 AM on February 13
You know who had an accent?
The Nazis.
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 12:14 PM on February 13
Apparently they don't have fact checkers at the New York Times.
The Frederick R. Weisman Museum, [...], has been housed since 1993 in a Frank Gehry creation made of aluminum panels.
From the Weisman site:
Materials: Brushed stainless steel [...]
Other than that and a seeming reluctance to leave downtown that article isn't that bad. Isn't that article kind of a good iinspiration for a thread -- like "what would you recommend for a visitor to the Twin Cities to do during February (besides the acquisition of Seasonal Affective Disorder and subsequent icy suicide)?
hipmn: When did MNSpeak become USENET?
»» Submitted by »»» jmullan at 1:40 PM on February 13
I always feel that the sooner a thread gets to Godwin, the better. And you know who else thought so?
The Gestapo.
»» Submitted by »»» hipmn at 5:18 PM on February 13
Here's a not-so-sophisticated New Yorker's take on the Twin cities.
Minneapolitans try so hard to be hip that it borders on caricature, as if their whole idea of "east coast cool" is based on what they saw on a network TV show. In addition, they seem to equate ill manners with urban sophistication. People lack common courtesy, seldom say please or thank you.
St. Paul, on the other hand, seems to pride itself on having nothing going for it, on being the most boring place in the country. The people are friendlier than Minneapolis, but one gets the impression that if you weren't born there, then you're not really welcome there.
The ciities are twins in the respect that both are unpleasant places to live.
The movie Fargo got it so right.
»» Submitted by mthalo at 4:25 AM on February 14
I almost forgot, you're darn tootin you say "you betcha"
Just listen carefully, I'll betcha you hear you betcha quite a bit.
»» Submitted by mthalo at 4:48 AM on February 14
mthalo:
how long did you live in NY? more to the point, where in NY did you reside? the Burroughs? long island? central? northern? buffalo? new york is a big-ass state and one that i was more than happy to leave. but i made the bad decision to move to Boston when i was 17.
ever live in Boston? i have, for 12 years, to be exact. there's no unfriendlier* place that harbors more rude, disgruntled, obnoxious, and downright mean people as Boston. the city is boring as hell and overpriced. i don't know why people stay there after college, that's for sure. So NY and Boston together hardly make east coast a place to look up to. you don't know how good you've got it here in MN, that's for sure.
so i guess my question to you is: why don't you move back to "friendlier" New York? if the twin cities is ground zero for rudeness, boring days and excruciating nights, why stay? i mean, why continue to live in a place so unpleasant?
as for me, i love it here. i'm never moving again.
* that may or may not be a word. so shoot me
»» Submitted by »»» honeybun at 11:50 AM on February 14
Honeybun,
I grew up in Westchester, and spent most of my adult life in Manhattan (based on current life expectancy estimates, I'm of the age where I can be considered as just passed the crest of the hill).
I'm am currently in the process of moving, just waiting for my current job to come to an end.
New York is certainly not the friendly capital of the world, and the real estate is overpriced to an extreme, but at least there's some real diversity. I don't think that Minnesotans will be satisfied until there's a Chipotle and Caribou Coffee on every block.
My father was from Boston, and was quite fond of referring to New York as the "pimple on the ass of the country".
»» Submitted by MTHALO at 12:26 PM on February 14
I lived in Boston most of my life and think it's one of the best cities in the country. I'm not there because of the expense of living there which only happens in cities where lots of people want to live. People aren't particularly friendly, but in order to be bored in Boston I think someone would have to have very few interests.
»» Submitted by Dennis at 7:56 PM on February 14
"The movie Fargo got it so right."
I think Fargo captured a certain essence of the place as well. I grew up in the barren plains that much of the movie appeared to be shot in (Clay County).
But I don't think you should be able to get away with saying "got it so right" without a few more examples. What's bothering you? Lack of diversity, which you seemingly define in terms of restaurants (there is something called 'cooking')? What do you find "unpleasant" about that?
Minneapolis does suffer from the same insecurity that just about every city suffers from, except for Paris.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:03 PM on February 15
interesting, but I scratch my head at the restaurants he chose...Masa and Mission, ...that's it? that's the best way to cover the diversity of our fine city's cuisine?...both very new, and within a stone's throw of each other...is it just to keep it downtown?
»» Submitted by al at 4:58 AM on February 16
I don't doubt Karlen's a good guy, and he certainly is well connected (he got the first national print interview Prince ever did, remember?) But the man simply cannot generate anything but half-baked smarm. I made it through his Babes in Toyland book despite grinding my teeth most of the time; I put his book about the St. Paul Saints in the Goodwill pile before I was halfway done. Feh.
»» Submitted by Dan Heilman at 3:31 PM on February 16
Are you people STILL upset over Fargo and the accurate depiction of "the accent"? If so, Minnesota needs collective group therapy. First, get over it--all regions of this great country have, well, regionalisms, which make us all unique. We New Yorkers are proud of our NY-speak. The more you ridicule it, the more notoriety you lend it, is what we say. You Minnesotans haven't gotten it yet--it's far better to be ridiculed than ignored, or to "blend in." Second, rather than focusing on the second-rate food and incredibly distinct accent, why not work on what really needs to change here--the insanely myopic, nearly incestuous culture here that fears anything different. As a transplanted NYer who's toughing it out for reasons even i question, there's nothing like moving to another part of my own country but feeling like a foreigner. The bigotry and hypocritical liberalism curled even my somewhat hard-to-manage hair. What's more, I am eternally amused by the incessant inferiority-complex driven comparisons and "we're really just as good as NY... really we are!" discussions. You're not. But don't feel bad. No one is. Why? Although MPLS will never have the cuisine, arts and culture NY has, it falls pathetically short for a much more serious reason: Unlike Minnesotans, NYers accept newcomers with open arms, from everywhere. That acceptance and diversity of THOUGHT and population, put in action, is what makes NY the jewel of our culture. That's something Minnesota is justified in pining after. And because i know Minn lacks any sense of humor or self awareness, go ahead--bring on the backlash. Bother me? Fugghedaboudit. I'm way more upset about the crappy food.
»» Submitted by K Rad from the Bronx at 10:40 AM on February 22
K Rad from the Bronx:
how do you get through your front door every day, with your chest puffed out so far and your ego being larger than all five buroughs combined?
just wonderin', yo.
-a native new yorker now in mpls.
ps) tell jenny i say 'whassup'.
»» Submitted by »»» honeybun at 11:20 AM on February 22
Honeybun--Thank you for a great response. I'm hoping, though, that you haven't been out here too long to have missed the satire in my posting. If so, you need a trip back East. If you're truly irritated, you've proved my point.
If you are sincere--which is hard to tell with Minnesotans--then thanks for responding.
And if you know where to get decent pizza around here, do post again.
k rad
»» Submitted by K Rad from the Bronx at 11:37 AM on February 22
This Twin Cities native agrees, K Rad. Somewhere in the 80's, the liberal/arts culture of Minneapolis (nothing outside the boundaries matters) became the intellectual property of a bullying elite around here. Do you know much about Austin, TX? That seems like a place whose culture doesn't read like a high school in-crowd.
»» Submitted by Jurl at 11:43 AM on February 22
Betcha comes up over 100 times when searched on eBay.... a dumb fact.
»» Submitted by nobother at 11:23 PM on May 12
G'day, i am an australian who lived in minneapolis for 3 months.
i loved the city, the river, the people, the restaurants and shops, the festivals and cultural pursuits among many other things. also st. paul and the surrounding countryside, esp up north eg. onamia. MN has so much going for it.
sure the accent is different from other parts of the usa, but that's part of the diversity that outsiders like myself are looking for.
what english speaking country doesn't have accent differences? look at the UK itself. even in australia we mostly know which part of the country people are from by slightly different pronunciation or use of words.
melbourne people rubbish sydneysiders and vice versa, and everyone rubbishes people from brisbane who call the rest of us "mexicans" ( we are down south u see). all done in good fun and humour.
and i cant count how many times i have been asked in the usa where i learnt to speak english and do i know steve irwin or crocodile dundee. so it doesn't pay to get too uptight about the stereotypes people get in their heads.
so have had my say and will get back to my "A Prairie Home Companion" DVD!
»» Submitted by Neil at 9:19 PM on May 20
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