151 Comments:
That is the saddest and most awful thing I've heard this week.
Ugh.
»» Submitted by »»» lolly at 7:47 PM on December 1
Is there any background information to which you can direct us? Because, you're right, it sounds odd that this guy would get pulled over for no reason, pepper sprayed for no reason, beaten for no reason, arrested for no reason, jailed for three days for no reason, and then released for no reason. I know that Minneapolis, at least, has interpreters; I can't figure out why things would go down this way.
»» Submitted by mike s at 8:06 PM on December 1
If he were blind, I would hope he wasn't driving a car.
»» Submitted by I'm here all night at 8:39 PM on December 1
I too would like to know more details, but actually, Mike, ironic doesn't say that Bahl was pulled over for no reason. There may very well have been a legitimate reason.
Once he was pulled over, I can easily imagine how the rest unfolded: He was reaching into his pocket, the cop tells him not to do that, but being deaf, Bahl obviously doesn't hear or obey the cop's order, so he gets pepper sprayed. Since he was disobeying a police order (as far as the cop's concerned, it doesn't matter why), he's viewed as resisiting and disorderly, so the cop has free reign to beat him. Once they start beating him, he's going to have to be taken in for processing, and so it goes.
It's really not all that different a situation than all the mentally ill people that MPD has murdered over the years.
I myself am hearing impaired, and this kind of situation is one that I've thought about. One of these days, I suspect I'll probably be walking down 1st Ave, or Hennepin or someplace, and a cop is going to yell some order at me from behind. I'm obviously not going to hear him, so I'll probably find myself eating concrete.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:00 AM on December 1
I'm working on finding more information.
It's been kept out of the press, but I know that a good friend of MN Speak has been working on it...it's just kind of...well...under wraps by the law at the moment.
I just sort of...ignored that due to the fact that I watched a few fellow colleagues burst into tears upon seeing pictures of him. When I find something concrete, I'll pass it on.
I also have no clue why he was stopped. Maybe he was speeding, I don't know, but I think the idea is sound: The why he was pulled over isn't as important. It's the way the situation played out.
»» Submitted by »»» ironic at 12:24 AM on December 1
Deaf people don't have a signature, like the glasses and white cane that blind people use, and there isn't a functional, understated addition to their ensemble that would help -- but maybe they should have something.
»» Submitted by »»» champs at 9:22 AM on December 2
Yeah, maybe they should have to wear a yellow Star of David on their sleeves. Oh! Oh, and the mentally ill can wear an upside down pink triangle.
»» Submitted by something should be done at 9:54 AM on December 2
This will probably sound bad, but I've always wondered why deaf people are allowed to drive? I mean, think about how important sound is to the driving experience, from hearing children or emergency vehicles to hearing if there's a knock in your engine or if you've got a muffler problem.
I'm not trying to pick on deaf people either -- I think driving priviledges should be tightened all around, from giving teens a provisional license that doesn't allow full rights till the age of 18 to mandatory behind-the-wheel tests for those of a certain age (say every five years starting at 70). Ban the use of cell phones, except for hands-free models. And ban drivers (and bicyclists) from using iPods or other devices that require them to wear earphones. I've never, ever understood how it's legal to operate a car when you've got earbuds jammed in your ears.
Back to ironic's story -- I think it's a little odd that you're admonishing people for not knowing this guy's story, and yet you don't know it yourself?
I trust this won't be a very popular opinion either, but it seems fair that it should be up to a deaf person to alert a cop as soon as humanly possible to his/her condition. I hate cops just as much as anyone else, but shouldn't a deaf person immediately say "I'm deaf" or make a motion with sign language or do something immediately after encountering a cop?
»» Submitted by just wondering at 10:42 AM on December 2
I do agree that Mr. Bahl not indicating via Sign that he was Deaf, and instead reaching into his pocket for a card, was a poor decision. It is awful that the result was what it was, but I can understand the possible miscommunication as proposed by mnblrmkr.
As for why the deaf are permitted to drive - it's because they aren't hindered any more than the hearing when the hearing have their windows rolled up and music blaring. If sound were an issue, our cars wouldn't have first-rate stereo systems and those crazy "environmental buffers" that make our ears pop when we open and close the car doors. All emergency vehicles have accompanying flashing lights.
As for the question of noticing children or engine problems - I would argue that the deaf might rely on, and therefore be more attuned to, their other senses. I would imagine that the deaf are well-versed in keen observation and would notice children just like the hearing, if not more quickly. I would also imagine that many deaf know how their car FEELS when it is functioning properly - and might be able to determine when something big is awry.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 11:07 AM on December 2
I trust this won't be a very popular opinion either, but it seems fair that it should be up to a deaf person to alert a cop as soon as humanly possible to his/her condition. I hate cops just as much as anyone else, but shouldn't a deaf person immediately say "I'm deaf" or make a motion with sign language or do something immediately after encountering a cop?
That's what it sounds like Bahl was trying to do. According to ironoc, he was reaching for hos "I am deaf" card" to hand over to the officer.
As for why deaf people driving, driving is primarily a VISUAL activity. Almost everything you mention can be dealt with safely by the driver remaining visually alert.
As for a knock in your engine, or a muffler problem etc., those pretty much have no impact on the safety of the driver. Personally, I deal with that by making sure that I occasionally have a person without hearing impairment listen for any not normal sounds I may be missing.
If you're going to ban ipods while bicycling, are you also going to ban deaf/hard of hearing from bicycling as well? Not much difference between the two situations.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 11:18 AM on December 2
leigha beat me to the post.
A comment about why this incident isn't more widely known: A "mere beating" by the cops (and I use that facetiously), almost always seems to take time to propagate through the news. I really only remember rarely seeing news about police brutality until there is some kind of legal action filed against the MPD or a settlement.
The exceptions seem to be:
1. a death or critical injury as a result,
2. a public or politically connected person,
3. the incident gets captured on camera by others and passed on to the news media, or:
4. The incident is taken up by a prominent community activist.
As related by ironic, I suspect that the circumstances of this incident are sufficiently disitinct that activists in the deaf community shouldn't have to much problem getting the media to pay some attention.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 11:30 AM on December 2
He should have kept his "card" infront of him instead of in his jacket. This way the police officer doesnt freak out when he goes reaching for something.
»» Submitted by johnmsp at 7:13 PM on December 2
Maybe he could order a custom support our troops MN license plate to say "IMDEAF".
»» Submitted by johnmsp at 7:15 PM on December 2
Sometimes its not the media not wanting to tell the story.. it's the family and/or the victim and/or the victim's attorneys, who choose not to go public yet.
This is a tough situation, because we don't really know what happened. For example, let's take mnblrmkr's scenario and flip it around:
Cop tries to pull Bahl over. Bahl doesn't hear the siren, so it takes a few blocks for him to notice and pull over. The cop approaches the car, telling Bahl to keep his hands where he can see them. Bahl doesn't hear the order, and starts digging around in his pocket for a card. Cop tells him to stop. Bahl keeps digging. Cop doesn't know why the suspect is ignoring him, and he's getting nervous about weapons, so he sprays Bahl in the face with some pepper spray. Bahl is blinded, panics, and tries to run. The cop is scared shitless, because he doesn't know what's wrong with Bahl; Bahl is scared shitless, because he's blind and apparently unable to communicate. They struggle, and the cop beats the fuck out of Bahl while trying to subdue him. They don't know what's wrong with him, Bahl is still apparently unable to tell them that he's deaf, and away he goes to processing....
Without knowing more, it's easy to guess at how Bahl or the cop could have fucked up. That's why I wish we had more information.
»» Submitted by »»» mike_s at 7:40 PM on December 2
I am shocked that I haven't heard about this, given my field of work, my circle of friends, as well as the fact that I have studied at St. Paul Tech and taken courses from Doug Bahl (and he is extremely well known in the local Deaf community). The "I'm Deaf" card is helpful 9 times out of 10 and I am horrified that the cops did what they did - how could they not realize that he was Deaf, not trying to shoot them?
Few cops and paramedics are trained in ASL (in the twin cities).
I find it impossible to believe that an interpreter wouldn't have been available for THREE DAYS! I can understand the misunderstanding/miscommunication at the initial stop by the cops but there is no excuse for their excessive force.
Did this happen in Minneapolis or St. Paul?
»» Submitted by Laura at 7:27 PM on December 2
Sorry Jason, I didn't mean for my comment to be a slam on the media. Cooperation of the victim/family would definitely be a factor in how quickly a story propagates.
I suspect that injuries during an arrest are probably so commonplace that barring one of the scenarios I listed, or something similar, reporters may not always be aware that an incident may be more serious or unique unless it's brought to their attention by the family.
And of course there is the matter of getting the other sides of the story. Although, in the most extreme situations, (when an officer kills someone), the media doesn't seem to hesitate to report the story before all the facts have been collected.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 7:45 PM on December 2
the part of the story that upsets me the most is the fact that we're supposed to believe that the MPD couldn't find an interpreter for three days. that seems excessive and ridiculous.
It was St. Paul Police. And honeybun, that is the most interesting part of this story, for sure.
"how could they not realize that he was Deaf, not trying to shoot them?"
- - - -
They probably forgot to go online at MnSpeak and read about him being deaf ahead of time, and instead foolishly elected to deal with the guy out in the real world where people who are reaching into their pockets in response to a police presence sometimes don't pull out candy bars for everyone.
What dumb cops, eh? Paranoid bastards, every one of 'em!
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:43 AM on December 2
That it was SPPD, or that they couldn't find an interpreter for 3 days??
I find the inability to find an interpreter to be the most incredulous part of the story. I mean, I've had bums in downtown Mpls try to converse with me in ASL. (I say try, because even though I am HOH, I've never learned it.)
If he was beaten as bad as ironic implies, he should have been taken to a hopsital. There shouldn't have been any trouble finding an interpreter there.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:26 AM on December 2
Was he pulled in on a Friday? Were his "three days" due to a weekend?
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:55 AM on December 2
It's not that difficult to pick up on someone being deaf/hoh. I rarely have to tell anyone that I meet in person, as it becomes obvious so quickly, and a big city cop should be even better trained to recognize that than the average citizen.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:51 AM on December 2
Interpreters are/should be available 24/7. Or do you think that deaf people should have to schedule their medical emergencies/accidents for standard business hours?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:09 AM on December 3
Leave it to the neofascist Mr. Friendly bobby_b...
Defend brutality first, ask questions later.
You right wing psychophants are hysterical and by hysterical I mean PATHOLOGICALLY DRIVEN TO BLAME ANY AND ALL VICTIMS.
And yet you are the first to cry foul when your lap dog media doesn't constantly apologize for your many transgressions.
If this poor fella was murdered while in jail, you would find a way to justify it. In your eyes "the man" can do no wrong.
You frighten me.
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 3:17 AM on December 3
I may not have entered it correctly, but here are some pictures.
»» Submitted by »»» ironic at 11:28 AM on December 3
http://www.ythree.com/?p=89
Trying it again...sorry.
»» Submitted by »»» ironic at 11:31 AM on December 3
Oh my god. Those are awful photographs. They make me furious, but furthermore, deeply saddened by the human capacity to do brutal things to one another.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 3:15 PM on December 3
1. Regarding why deaf people are allowed to drive: Leigha beat me to providing a good overview. I just want to add a few nuances:
a. I'm not sure how recent or extensive these were, but at least some studies have shown that deaf drivers actually have LOWER accident rates than hearing people
b. Deaf people usually use our eyes for things like checking for pedestrians in the street. In fact, I should darn well hope that hearing drivers don't just rely on their hearing to be aware of incautious jay walkers and children -- not all will necessarily make noise, so you have to keep your eyes peeled to make sure you SEE them.
c. Ditto for emergency vehicles -- a deaf driver knows to check his/her mirror more frequently than most drivers to check for anything behind them, including vehicles w/sirens. (Also, some deaf drivers hear a bit and therefore might HEAR the siren. But inability to hear the siren is not a barrier.)
d. As (Leigha? or someone else?) pointed out, being aware of engine problems is not normally a safety issue. HOWEVER, this is not the barrier for deaf people that some hearing people imagine. One time when I was taking driving lessons from a driving teacher at my high school, I noticed that the vibrations of the car felt really, really "off" to me (instead of smooth and regular there was something "clunky" in the vibrations). I told the instructor this, and at first he said he didn't hear anything wrong with the engine so we simply continued on with the driving lesson. But then, part way through the lesson, the teacher admitted that he was slowly starting to hear the problem too. I have heard other stories of deaf people who have picked up on engine problems through vibrations alone long before hearing people picked up on anything. Of course, this is not a universal phenomon: hearing people do sometimes pick up on engine problems before deaf people (this situation has happened to me too). As Leigha suggests, a smart deaf driver can occasionally ask a hearing friend to listen to their engine. But a smart hearing driver might want to consider asking a deaf friend to sit in their car on occasion as well :-)
2. Regarding this sad situation with Doug Bahl: in some ways, I see both sides here. Yes, the cops could have handled it better. But so could Doug have. Yes, probably most cops in most cities and most rural areas are probably in desperate need of better sensitivity training in relation to deafness and the whole range of other disabilities. But deaf people should probably have some safety training too. Starting with: never reach into your jacket until you are absolutely absolutely sure the cop knows you're doing it and is okay with it. Cops are TRAINED to respond to this kind of gesture on the assumption that a person might be reaching for a weapon. There are far, far more people with guns in their jackets than there are deaf people who are just reaching for paper and pen.
Someone here suggested having that "I'm deaf card" on the dash board, where it's in plain view and can be reached for more openly. That could be one approach for deaf drivers to take, especially people who cannot speak clearly enough to be confident of their ability to make themselves understood to cops. A pen and pad of paper could also be left on the dashboard.
Another would be to wait until the cop is in visual range and then SLOWLY gesture deafness. (Cops react badly to fast movements.) This is imperfect because I have found that some hearing people seem to misinterpret my gesture when I do this (non-cops, in ordinary situations). For example, sometimes they think I'm asking them to speak louder, directly into my ear! As if that would help! Or they else, they might understand but might freeze and think they can't communicate with me at all!
»» Submitted by Andrea at 3:18 PM on December 3
This will probably sound bad, but I've always wondered why deaf people are allowed to drive? I mean, think about how important sound is to the driving experience, from hearing children or emergency vehicles to hearing if there's a knock in your engine or if you've got a muffler problem.
Driving is a visual activity. And the majority of Deaf people I know are excellent drivers, because we are so used to being visually attuned to our environment. I'm often the first person to pull over for an emergency vehicle because I spot the lights in my rearview mirror long before anyone else hears them. Most children aren't going to scream before running out into the street too, they're just gonna run. I'm just hyperaware of my surroundings. Plus us Deaf people aren't the ones yapping on a cell phone paying no attention to the road or fiddling with the radio instead of driving.
This is just an awful situation. "I'm deaf" is the first thing out of my mouth when I get pulled over to try to avoid this situation in the first place. I understand the cop being wary because they do usually ask that you leave your hands where they can see them. I think mistakes were made on both sides and just some education could have avoided the whole mess. The beating is uncalled for though, since he never actually pulled a weapon or made a threat.
»» Submitted by Danielle at 3:42 PM on December 3
Bahl was pulled over because he ran through a red light. He was in jail for three days because it happened on Friday so waited for court appearance on Monday morning.
I think this is a good lesson for both sides. We have to teach everyone that when you are pulled over, you are not supposed to do anything, not even reach for your wallet or anything. You are supposed to wait for the police officer's instructions. So it was Bahl's error to try to reach for his card or a pen and that lead the police officer to think he was reaching for a weapon. But the police shouldn't have declined his rights to have an interpreter or to make a phone call.
Deaf people can do anything except hear, that includes driving!! There is reaseach that shows that Deaf people are better driver than hearing people.
»» Submitted by Minnesotan at 3:55 PM on December 3
guys, guys, do you think Doug Bahl is the ONLY deaf person that was viciously beaten by the cops across the nation? Rest assured, it did not only happen to African Americans. It happened to all spectrum of minorities.
Down with freakin' bacon!
R-
»» Submitted by ridor at 5:22 PM on December 3
Initial Appearances in front of a judge are required to happen within 24 hours. If he was picked up on Friday, he should have seen a judge. That part of the story doesn't make sense. Can you imagine how many people they would collect in their jails over a weekend? And how many people in IA Court on Monday morning. Ridiculous.
AND his poor family! If he had no access for 3 days, they must have been going insane!
»» Submitted by bigblueyes at 5:04 PM on December 3
Just saying thanks for all the thoughtful, complete answers to my questions. It's a pleasure to see a thread, for the most part, not devolve into name calling.
That said, what about deaf muslims? Should we trust them? Also, should deaf people vote for democrats or republicans?
»» Submitted by just wondering at 5:47 PM on December 3
justwondering: As a registered voter, I take your comments very offensive and insulting. You are the reason why I termed "hearing people" as "typical hearie" -- the ones that I rarely socialize with. You're simply inept, inane and stupid cog of waste who does not deserved to be called as a human!
R-
»» Submitted by ridor at 6:29 PM on December 3
Also, should deaf people vote for democrats or republicans?
Here's one perspective.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 6:08 PM on December 3
"Interpreters are/should be available 24/7. Or do you think that deaf people should have to schedule their medical emergencies/accidents for standard business hours?"
and
"Initial Appearances in front of a judge are required to happen within 24 hours. If he was picked up on Friday, he should have seen a judge."
- - -
"The defendant shall be brought before such judge or judicial officer without unnecessary delay, and in any event, not more than 36 hours after the arrest, exclusive of the day of arrest, Sundays, and legal holidays, or as soon thereafter as such judge or judicial officer is available." (Rule 4.02, subd. 5(1).)
Note the "exclusive of . . ." language. Means, "not counting", for the benefit of the "literacy? - we doan need no stinken' literacy!" crowd here.
That's why I asked whether he was picked up on a Friday.
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 6:37 PM on December 3
Where does it say that the cops get to beat the shit out of him?
And I think it's bullshit to blame this poor guy because the cops are claiming he made a "move for his card." Give me a break.
The only lesson to learn here is that ANY TIME the cops decide to pull you over, your life is in jeopardy. There are a few good cops but far too many are poorly trained, bitter assholes. It would help if they - like teachers - were paid better.
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 8:07 PM on December 3
Ridor, I was joking. I mean, come on.
»» Submitted by just wondering at 8:23 PM on December 3
Cops are unionists and nothing more than uniformed bureaucrats who's primary mission in life is to reach retirement one day after the biggest donut sale of the year. And if that isn't bad enough, they vote democrat. But then, that kinda figures, don't it. (get it? dont-it? donut?) heh
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:29 PM on December 3
I am friends with Doug Bahl and his family. They did not know where Doug was for three days - they were frantically calling friends, local hospitals, and all the places they could think of. Even if the police had a reason to keep him locked up for so long, I do not understand why they did not at least allow him to contact his family (where was that "one phone call" deal?).
I am beyond furious that this happened to Doug. I have known him for years and he is the last person I would expect to ever do anything to provoke a physical confrontation. He is maybe 5'4", usually very clean cut, and by no means does he look physically intimidating. He's also known internationally for his many years of service to our community, most notably for his research and presentations on a famous deaf architect and Deaf Kinderstransport, an underground effort that whisked Deaf Jewish children away to safety from Nazi Germany. He's a big history buff, and in fact he right now is the caretaker of a historical landmark deaf club in St. Paul that was built by the deaf architect he speaks internationally about.
Doug is highly intelligent. It's not likely he was ignorant of how to deal with the police. But, if he did make a mistake, which I don't know if he did, come on. Most of us aren't pulled over by the police on a daily basis, so how do you know you'll do everything exactly right under pressure? And what if it's late at night and you're tired? Even if he did make a mistake, he did not deserve to be beaten so severely. The police are supposed to be the ones who are trained to assess the situation and not escalate it into a senseless beating.
»» Submitted by alicia at 8:24 PM on December 3
FYI: A message from Doug in a local blog.
Interested that someone who demands so much respect for his public services is so horrendously dismissive of the public services of others. Talking about Maz, natch.
Hey, how long were you in the Navy, chum? Because multiply that by ten or so and you have the amount of time many retiring cops have spent risking their on the street.
80 years? No wonder they move so slowly.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 10:16 PM on December 3
I had a bad experience with cops . I found out that cops was parked in front of my car when i get in my car from yard sale . I apparently parked on the wrong place . I came to him and asked him in my gesture to see if ticket is written for me . he wasnt listened ... i didnt know if it is for me so i drove away and the cop followed me and i immedialty knew it was for me . i pulled off and the cop was approached me and tried telling me something and i told him i cant understand u because i am deaf in my gesture ( pointed to my ears and spoke each word). I read his lips what he said," BULLSHIT u re not deaf " in front of my 7 years old hearing son . He was shocked that cops wasnt treat me right . It upsetted him . I didnt speak beautifully like hearing s voice ...( just getting by speaking ) He gave me a hard time . he wont let me drive home . he wanted me calling my Deaf husband at that time i did nt have sidekick for getting me . we argued for 3 hours and The Cop had to call the chief and I was very upset and cried so hard ... He came and learned it is very small problem . it was nice of the Chief letting me go and waived my parking ticket . The chief bawled at The cop for not handled this well .... so i didnt sue them for my very emotional exprience .. It was scared me because i was afraid he would have shot me ...
»» Submitted by cher at 10:04 PM on December 3
Cops are unionists and nothing more than uniformed bureaucrats who's primary mission in life is to reach retirement one day after the biggest donut sale of the year.
Maz, just curious. Did you take advantage of the GI Bill?
You've said a lot of incredibly ignorant things here, but this is a new low.
»» Submitted by »»» TBartel at 11:32 PM on December 3
"The defendant shall be brought before such judge or judicial officer without unnecessary delay, and in any event, not more than 36 hours after the arrest, exclusive of the day of arrest, Sundays, and legal holidays, or as soon thereafter as such judge or judicial officer is available." (Rule 4.02, subd. 5(1).)
Note the "exclusive of . . ." language. Means, "not counting", for the benefit of the "literacy? - we doan need no stinken' literacy!" crowd here.
That's why I asked whether he was picked up on a Friday.
That's all pretty much irrelevant to access to interpreters. The guy was pepper sprated and beaten, he's very likely to have medical needs during that time.
And I also don't think that the weekend exception means that they can hold him incommunicado for that time as well.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 11:44 PM on December 3
Please make your comment, complaint, concern, protest, petition directly to National Association for the Deaf, Deaf Law Center at www.nad.org write directly to them in any problems! Thanks. That will be brought the national action with U.S. Department of Justice and parties for investigations, actions, etc. Thanks.
»» Submitted by christopher zvolanek at 12:00 AM on December 3
Please make your comment, complaint, concern, protest, petition directly to National Association for the Deaf, Deaf Law Center at www.nad.org write directly to them in any problems! Thanks. That will be brought the national action with U.S. Department of Justice and parties for investigations, actions, etc. Thanks.
»» Submitted by christopher zvolanek at 12:00 AM on December 3
NAD is already notified of this and they are working with Doug Bahl to assist him in ripping St. Paul Police Department apart.
Down with pigs.
JustWondering: Don't tell me to chill, your comments reflects your ignorance and petty insults at the expense of others. Just wait until one day you lost your sight and I'll sneer at your expense. God, don't you love the karma? I thrive on it.
R-
Does this apply to deaf people, too?
»» Submitted by I'm starting to wonder at 1:38 AM on December 4
"down with pigs"
"I hate cops as much as the next guy"
"down with bacon"
There are some complete fkking morons on this blog--both deaf and hearing.
Respect the police, because you will need them someday. This incident was unfortunate, but think about the scumbags that cops have to deal with these days. Doug made a mistake by reaching for his pocket and startling the officers. It is unfair that they continued beating him after they sprayed him with pepper spray
But to say the cops are completely at fault is wrong--they were reacting to a percieved threat. This issue should be visited, I like the idea of the license plate or sticker on the dashboard.
Accidents happen, and the cops in this case may have taken it way too far, and should be punished.
but to somehow make this a 'police conspiracy against the deaf' and to demonize the whole profession is just lame.
»» Submitted by baker at 10:21 AM on December 4
I think it's pathetic and instructive when middleclass white people tell indians and other minorities that abusive cops are just in our imagination.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 10:47 AM on December 4
Maza is sick and tired of being hassled by the man.
»» Submitted by »»» mike_s at 10:54 AM on December 4
maza, was that comment dirtected at me?
»» Submitted by baker at 10:57 AM on December 4
maz, you never answered Tom's question about the GI Bill.
»» Submitted by sayin' at 11:04 AM on December 4
Guess which one is Maz?
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 11:39 AM on December 4
I think it's pathetic and instructive when middleclass white people tell indians and other minorities that abusive cops are just in our imagination.
Actually, we're saying that cops aren't just lazy, abusive racists suckling at the public teat, but, for the most part, are hardworking professionals in a difficult and dangerous job that deserves our respect. Those who abuse their power should be punished, and there are often systemic problems in police departments, but there is a diffrence between fair, responsible, respectful criticism and "fuck the pigs" jeremiads.
BTW, Maza invites a lot of abuse -- that's what trolls do, after all -- but I really, really dislike comments that turn on his ethnicity.
»» Submitted by »»» mike_s at 12:06 PM on December 4
Actually, we're saying that cops aren't just lazy, abusive racists suckling at the public teat, but, for the most part, are hardworking professionals in a difficult and dangerous job that deserves our respect. Those who abuse their power should be punished, and there are often systemic problems in police departments, but there is a diffrence between fair, responsible, respectful criticism and "fuck the pigs" jeremiads.
Thank you Max.
Nicely said
»» Submitted by baker at 12:18 PM on December 4
I agree. He gives us so much to make fun of, why take easy pot shots?
This issue should be visited, I like the idea of the license plate or sticker on the dashboard.
While there may be some practicality to this, there are any number of questions and concerns over that: What if the driver needs to drive a different/non identified car? Or if the car is driven by both deaf and hearing people.
What about the potential for the plates to be used to target deaf people for attacks, under the presumption that they may be easier targets, and less able to call/signal for help?
Not to mention the whole idea of a badge. Perhaps muslims should be required to display a crescent? Jews a star of David? Gays a pink triangle?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:16 PM on December 4
"That's all pretty much irrelevant to access to interpreters. The guy was pepper sprated and beaten, he's very likely to have medical needs during that time."
- - -
I was responding to the statements concerning when he had to be brought into court after his arrest - which is, by our statutes, the time when an interpreter is required to be provided.
I'm not defending a beating, nor am I defending a lack of medical care (if there was such a lack), or him being held incommunicado (again, if this happened) - just the oft-yelled notion that you get to see a judge within 24 hours.
Heck, even in high school, we knew that if you had a warrant out on you (late fine, or anything like that), you had better drive carefully on Fridays, or you'd be in jail all weekend, and not in court until Monday
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:43 PM on December 4
Gays a pink triangle?
Would this be designed by Cartier or D&G?
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 12:58 PM on December 4
While there may be some practicality to this, there are any number of questions and concerns over that: What if the driver needs to drive a different/non identified car? Or if the car is driven by both deaf and hearing people.
What about the potential for the plates to be used to target deaf people for attacks, under the presumption that they may be easier targets, and less able to call/signal for help?
Not to mention the whole idea of a badge. Perhaps muslims should be required to display a crescent? Jews a star of David? Gays a pink triangle?
Ok, how about a hanging window tag that can be moved from car to car?
I am sure discussion of what best medium to use for this would have to occur....but there needs to be a better way for officers to understand that someone can not hear and therefore comply with orders....
I don't think the 'easier targets' idea is very applicable. If that were the case we wouldn't have handicap license plates, because it's quite easy to beat down and rob and old handicapped woman....err.....so I've been told.
The branding or 'badge' idea, that is a bit over the top too. This is a means of identification of (lack of) a physical trait(hearing) that is a fundamental part of communication, especially when dealing with figures of authority.
We need to think practically, and short of 'training' deaf people how to react to police, what else is there?
If I reach for my pocket when told to do smething, I would have gotten owned by the cops too.
»» Submitted by baker at 1:13 PM on December 4
"...but there needs to be a better way for officers to understand that someone can not hear and therefore comply with orders...."
How about when a person stopped by the police says or signs "I am deaf" (or said person starts speaking in spanish/Lao/etc.), instead of the cop saying "Bulls*@t", or beating on the person, they take that at face value, and call for an interpreter, if needed?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:38 PM on December 4
baker, I have the inside source. Doug NEVER reached his pocket which prompted the cops to attack him. Let me repeat, he never put his hands in his pocket which "startled the cops" as you wanted it to be.
Typical response by a lyin' hearie fool.
Cheers,
R-
How about when a person stopped by the police says or signs "I am deaf" (or said person starts speaking in spanish/Lao/etc.), instead of the cop saying "Bulls*@t", or beating on the person, they take that at face value, and call for an interpreter, if needed?
come on now.
They did not just start beating on him. He reached for his pocket, a big NO-NO when dealing with police. It seems clear they took it too far, but let's no re-create the story. It's a shame it happened, don't get me worng. What I hate is how every little incodent with cops get molded into some human rights/profiling issue. Being a cop is a very hard job, with lots of risks. I wish people would appreciate those who serve well.
That would be great if cops could trust everyone, but if cops always took everything at face value, they'd all be dead and no crimes would ever be solved. Soi scrath that.
Not saying that the cops who said 'BS' when pulling the deaf MNspeak person over was in the right--sounds uncalled for. But then again, it's an anecdote from a cyberperson. Who knows if it even happened.
»» Submitted by baker at 1:45 PM on December 4
In Phoenix the police have a much more refined method of handling def drivers who run afoul of the law
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 1:47 PM on December 4
baker, I have the inside source. Doug NEVER reached his pocket which prompted the cops to attack him. Let me repeat, he never put his hands in his pocket which "startled the cops" as you wanted it to be.
Typical response by a lyin' hearie fool.
Cheers,
R-
Yes, I love it when deaf people get beaten. Long live hearies!
Please tell me that you didn't just call me a 'lyin hearie' based on the fact that I am able to hear.
Please do share this source then, R.
I'm interested in how it actually went down. Did they stand behind him and say mocking things, giggling as no response was illicited?
Provide a link that explains what really happened, Until then, I'll believe the original poster, as much as it seems like you would be a reliable source.
»» Submitted by baker at 1:53 PM on December 4
It is amusing that hearing people continues to doubt and deny that the cops do attack Deaf people from time to time.
It happened to *me*. When my friend lost control of his SUV in the rain -- he was the designated driver for another friend who owned that SUV. We waited for the cops to come by to assist. But no, they came to berate and attack us -- and shone their flashlights in our faces the whole TIME around. As a Deaf person, we use our eyes to communicate and what they did was very degrading and offensive. They refused to assist but to shout at us to hear them.
I got fed up and decided to write down the numbers of their officers -- but guess what they did? They started to cover their numbers as well.
Wow. Goes on to tell what kind of mean cops are.
R-
I got in touch with someone closer to the family. So I knew my source to be true and yours to be false.
R-
Ridor, in your article, you say that the police tried to pull him over, but that he "didn't see the siren." Now, I think you mis-typed that, and that's not my issue, but if you meant that he didn't see the lights, and kept going, doesn't this make the cops' suspicions of him more understandable?
I mean, cops have lights and sirens. I understand that deaf people can't hear the siren, but how does being deaf skate him past the "you need to pull over for the flashing lights" idea? Once you pass that point with the cops, they're going to be a bit more vigilant and aggressive.
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 2:26 PM on December 4
Well, clearly we're never going to get to the bottom of this by arguing about the facts on the interweb. It sounds like Bahl has lawyers. So does the City of St. Paul. One day the facts will come out.
One thing's for certain, though -- the phrase "lyin' hearie fool" is freaking awesome. Ridor is my new favorite MNspeak crackpot!!!
»» Submitted by »»» mike_s at 2:33 PM on December 4
He said the St. Paul PD won't comment further during the investigation, adding "That is probably why responsible news agencies have held off on this story."
Now that's funny. What's going on here is that "responsible" news agencies wouldn't look at Mr. Bahl and see that he'd been beaten up, and just ask the cops if they had done it? No one is disuputing the facts, only the explanation. If the cops aren't willing to offer one, besides the "obstruction" charge, then maybe the "responsible" news agencies could just say "The St. Paul PD has no comment."
Truly responsible news agencies go for the truth, not so-called balance. What the PD spokesman calls "responsible" news agencies let public officials hide behind "no comment" all the time. Look how the Strib held the Chris Stewart story until he'd had a chance to make up his bullshit.
The "obstruction" charge is laughable ass covering. Can we see the cop's face so we know how much of a beating he took when Mr. Bahl was "obstructing."
Boy, I'd love to be the lawyer on this one.
»» Submitted by »»» TBartel at 2:20 PM on December 4
I got in touch with someone closer to the family. So I knew my source to be true and yours to be false.
R-
Ahh, of course.
And it this turns out to be not true, will will have a bunch of 'lying deaf fools' on our hands, won't we.
»» Submitted by baker at 3:03 PM on December 4
It's not a stigma unless it's meant to be. Most people with noteworthy conditions have some kind of marker, be it a MedicAlert bracelet, white cane, or a wheelchair. In my opinion, having one for the deaf would be a communication aid.
»» Submitted by »»» champs at 3:06 PM on December 4
even when i was a foolish 16yr old i knew to have my license and insurance ready by the time the cop made it to my car. you don't just go rummaging around your car with a cop standing there. everybody knows that.
as fun as it is to call cops "pigs", there just has to be more to this story.
»» Submitted by whatev at 3:34 PM on December 4
even when i was a foolish 16yr old i knew to have my license and insurance ready by the time the cop made it to my car. you don't just go rummaging around your car with a cop standing there. everybody knows that.
This course of action will likely result in that cop drawing his weapon before he even gets to your car. In a traffic stop you should sit in your seat with your hands on the wheel until instructed otherwise. If you reach to get your ID out and unbuckle your seat beat you are looking at another fine added on.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:43 PM on December 4
Seeing as traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things police do on a regular basis, they're understandably skittish. However, pulling someone out and beating them seems completely unjustifiable.
This course of action will likely result in that cop drawing his weapon before he even gets to your car. In a traffic stop you should sit in your seat with your hands on the wheel until instructed otherwise. If you reach to get your ID out and unbuckle your seat beat you are looking at another fine added on.
that's just not true. you are to have your license and insurance in your hands, in plain sight, waiting for the cop to reach your window. the last thing they want to do is stand there waiting for you to dig through your purse, looking for your id. i'm a bit of an expert, having been pulled over multiple times, and haven't been maced once.
this is a stupid argument.
»» Submitted by whatev at 4:30 PM on December 4
You forgot the part about finishing your drink first.
»» Submitted by grote at 4:41 PM on December 4
anonymous poster baker! fighting for his right to a police state!
»» Submitted by yup at 5:17 PM on December 4
There is already a deaf decal (like no smoking but in this case Can't hear on ear) on license plate and as for the driver license- it will show that you are deaf. But for in that order to get one for your license plate and deaf decal sticker on your driver license- you have to get a proof from your doctor to take to the revenue office and buy the decal and get the license with deaf on it. It does work as police have pulled me over before and gave me paper n pen to write on. Not many deaf/hoh people know about the decal sticker and they need to contact their local revenue office to get one. Spread this around so they can get one. :)
»» Submitted by Ginger at 5:07 PM on December 4
And wassup with the whole 'deaf culture" thing?
You know, where they think 'hearies' are beneath them.
But then whine when they get a (apparently welll deserved) beat down?
Walsh - stop with the maudlin bleeding heart crapola please.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 6:41 PM on December 4
Nobody deserves a "beat down" more than you Junior Bud!
I bet people would line up around the block to slap you around.
Heh.
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 9:34 PM on December 4
Bobby_b also is an apologist for the auschwitz guards:
"Hey they were just following orders! Just doin the tough job of exterminationg people! Lay off!"
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 9:35 PM on December 4
As a deaf person I would feel extremely unsafe displaying in public view information about my deafness. I've seen too many people try to take advantage of me upon learning of my deafness. In most people's minds, consciously or not, the fact that they do not hear clear speech emanating from someone means that the person is either 1) a child or 2) developmentally delayed. Hence, someone easy to overpower.
So, no thank you.
»» Submitted by alicia at 12:18 AM on December 4
What a shame. Does Doug was aware of his sitution when the police pulled him over? If Doug panicked and pulled his card or pad for writing with cops, that move gave cops easy excuse to vent their anger out on him just because Doug couldn't hear the siren or noticed lights awhile? Or Did cops had their bad day and beat the senses out of him just because he was just deaf to them? It is no wonder that after doug was subdued by pepperspray, hold down on his face by two big cops, and handcuffed behind his back; he couldn't explained or try to make any communications at all with anyone. Cops should be plenty aware of the drivers sometimes used phones, have radio blasting, and loss of hearing, too. What a screw-up like this with deaf and cop in normal traffic voilation leads turmoc of laws would correct this common mistake? I say let us just pass along our message over to everyone in the media, newspapers, and television so we cannot be ignored like that in the public!
»» Submitted by Troy at 10:27 AM on December 5
This story made the Pioneer Press today.
»» Submitted by Watson at 11:23 AM on December 5
If Doug panicked and pulled his card or pad for writing with cops, that move gave cops easy excuse to vent their anger out on him just because Doug couldn't hear the siren or noticed lights awhile? Or Did cops had their bad day and beat the senses out of him just because he was just deaf to them?
Is niiiice!
»» Submitted by whaaaa? at 11:40 AM on December 5
1. I have plenty of sources all over Twin Cities including Bahl's close pals. Rest assured, you heard things to be sketchy but the information that I had collected so far is very volatile.
It is not like anything you'll ever claim to be.
Please remember this: Doug is 5'4 -- not 6'4. And cops claimed that he attacked and bit. Of course, that is what they said when they shot Sean Bell 50 times. They said he had a gun. But he did not.
Listen, I'm Deaf. I already deal with hearies on daily basis. Their atrocities are appalling, to say the least, they would make Stalin smirk. So I reserve the right to put you hearies beneath *me*. Of course, I like to think that being Deaf, I'm much better than y'all ignorants.
Cheers,
R-
who cares if he's "only" 5'4". what, short people can't assault police? i don't think anybody is said he reached for a "pen" (weapon, whatever) on top of his car, or on a really high shelf...
»» Submitted by whatev at 4:23 PM on December 5
Listen, I'm Deaf. I already deal with hearies on daily basis. Their atrocities are appalling, to say the least, they would make Stalin smirk.
Sheez, Ridor. Don't you know how stupid that sounds?
»» Submitted by whaaaa? at 6:20 PM on December 5
Hey, Stalin was a smirky motherfucker.
I just wanted to comment because I know Doug Bahl personally. I heard about the incident immediately after it happened, and am really sad that this happened. The saddest thing, however, is that it is not surprising. They are not known for being St. Paul's finest.
The point of my email, however, is to comment on a few things. First, it is a common misconception that Deaf people have fine-tuned their other senses. That is simply not true. They must rely on them more, but they are no better than a hearing person's. Second, I feel that I need to directly comment about a post made by johnmsp. He said that Doug should have kept his "card" on his jacket. That sound very similar to the things Hitler forced people to do. Asking that of him is no better. Also, while it might seem that he should have signed to the cop that he was Deaf, I can tell you the cop would not have understood it. I have never known Doug to use his voice, and I am pretty sure he hears very little. In addition, American Sign Language is a very different language from English (I am qualified to say this because I know both) and someone who doesn't know it would not understand what he meant. That is why he most likley had a pad of paper and a pen to ask for an interpreter and not a card saying he was Deaf. Many Deaf people use that method to communicate in situations such as that.
As far as Deaf people living a normal life, there are many different kinds of technologies available to help make up for their hearing loss. There are things like vibrating alarm clocks that go under your pillow and flashing lights connected to a doorbell or phone (TTY). A good place to go for more information about this is Harris Communication's Website. They offer many different types of things to help Deaf people.
Finally, as I said before, I know Doug personally, and I have never known him to be a violent man. I have no doubts that whatever happened to him was a horrible misunderstanding, but I do not believe for a second that he started the violence first.
»» Submitted by teacher4deaf at 9:25 PM on December 5
They might not understand WHAT was being signed (If they did, there's not much need for an interpreter). But, especially with the training that they are supposed to receive, they sohuld recognize that it is ASL, and that an interpreter is therefore needed.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 9:58 PM on December 5
A militant deaf person. Thats new. Unfortunately, rampant hypocrisy is not new.
Trust me, there is nothing new about militant deaf people.
Have they always been hypocrites?
YAY BRASH GENERALIZATIONS!!!
If you want to view me as militant Deaf individual, fine with me. It is true when one is assertive of his rights, one views it as militant because one refused to back down and be passive about the injustices.
I rather to be a militant than to be passive in dealing with your shit.
You remind me of one hearie fool in New York who asked me on a paper pad, he asked if sleeping with a deaf person will infect him with deafness?
My response? "Yes, you will be infected. Play safe."
You ask dumb questions, you get that, too.
That is my philosophy.
Deal with it, 'tards.
R-
The city of Saint Paul needs to clean out their departments for good: From the PD down to the housing inspectors. This latest incident, regarding to a blind person's arrest, is just far beyond the pale of school bullying these days. The tactics that the cops use on this man was nearly nothing more than the full horror of what we expected to be confronted upon ourselves: Fascism. These selective thugs violated the guy's simple miranda rights and the city leaders however are just saying nothing about it as if this never occurred. A ho-hum deal.
Bascially, Hitler must be proud of this. Sad commentary.
»» Submitted by Big G at 11:37 PM on December 5
The Strib has noticed.
»» Submitted by »»» TBartel at 4:31 AM on December 6
According to the Strib and the police report, Doug assaulted the officer. Guess what, if you grab my shirt and bite me when I pull you over, I'm not waiting for an interpreter to arrive. You're hitting the pavement.
"Bobrowski went to Bahl's car window to ask for his driver's license, police said. Bahl reportedly did not speak to the officer and shook his head to say no, the complaint says.
Police maintain that the officer noticed that Bahl was hard of hearing and started back to his squad car to get a pencil and pad to communicate with him. But, according to the complaint, Bahl grabbed the officer's shirt and pulled him toward the car, then hit the officer's arm and bit his thumb.
Bobrowski used a chemical spray on Bahl, and then he and another officer pulled him out of the vehicle."
»» Submitted by Derek at 8:48 AM on December 6
Okay, that story just doesn't make any sense, unless Doug is crazy, or a zombie.
And we should unquestionably accept the cops version of the incident because...?
That version could just as easily arise from a rookie cop realizing he screwed up big time, and trying to save his ass.
Given all that, I would guess that what may get St Paul/Ramsey county in the biggest legal trouble is their failure/refusal to provide him with the available TTY (and on-call interpreter) while he was in jail, and even more so their failure to provbide an interpreter at the court hearing.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 9:27 AM on December 6
Neither the complaint nor the police report on the incident indicates that Bahl is deaf or hard of hearing.
It's also interesting that according to the Strib there is no mention of Doug being deaf in the police report yet is a crucial part of the police officers story about going back to his car for a pad of paper.
Someone is lying here.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 9:26 AM on December 6
I assume there will not be any sort of pre-trial hearing.
»» Submitted by grote at 9:59 AM on December 6
I went to camp widjiwagan with a deaf kid once. He was very militant. He picked many fights, and had a terrible temper. He was a very bitter boy, and full of anger. I can imagine it is frustrating.
But R, how is what you are doing putting 'hearies' beneath you in any way constructive? The majority of us 'hearies' respect and understand your handicap and do not purposely try to offend you. If we said about deaf people the things you have said in this thread, we would be demonized for making fun of someones disability.
But when you act superior and make fun of us based on the fact that we can hear and you can not, there is simply no other choice, but to say "fuck you."
-baker
»» Submitted by baker at 10:08 AM on December 6
Baker, if you understood deafness as you claim, you would know that a large number of deaf people -- especially the ones you might call "militant" -- do not consider themselves to be handicapped, but instead to be a member of a language minority, that language being ASL. It's rather hard to explain to someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with deaf people, but the truth is there are precious few times when hearing is utterly necessary, and deaf people have resolved every one of them. Except for one: Being able to communicate with non-deaf people. And the problem there isn't an issue of hearing, it's an issue of language, since deaf people are able to communicate perfectly well using sign language.
But Max, does that excuse bigotry towards those who hear?
You are right, I don't have any deaf friends, and don't belong to any deaf groups, so I may not undertsand how they view themselves. Personally I view the lack of any of the basic five sense to be a handicap. But what it is called is not really that important in this context.
The point is that Ridor lashed out at me because i took the stance that I doubted the cops beat on this man simply because he was deaf, or for no reason at all, as all the reactionaries here claim actually happened. And then he denigrated me because I can hear.
»» Submitted by baker at 11:06 AM on December 6
Well it's not really justified, but, I must say, being called a "stupid hearie" or something similar just doesn't seem to pack that much of a punch. Sort of in the same way I have a hard time getting all that upset when gay people call me a breeder.
But, you know, to each their own. If it bothers you, you have every right to complain.
I guess I am sick of the double standards. If I would have been the one to call Ridor a 'stupid deaf fool', I would be the bad guy. As it stands, Ridor's comments illicited very few comments, while mine would probably have caused the whole board to react. Even though they would have been essentially both the same----aiming comments at someone based on their physical abilities.
Anyways, it's over now, I'm done with this thread.
»» Submitted by baker at 11:22 AM on December 6
Well, you must admit there is a difference between picking on someone for being deaf and picking on them for not being deaf.
Well, in a most basic view, perhaps.
But conceptually, It has nothing to do with majority/minority status.
It is picking on someone for their physical traits.
It's like saying only White people can be racist, and we all know that is certainly not true.
»» Submitted by baker at 11:28 AM on December 6
I agree with you on that. As I said, you have ever right to complain.
These were the things that taught me the most about deaf people. These and having a former BF that is now a Math Teacher at a School for the deaf and working at the MN school for the Deaf in Faribault.
Season 5 of ER had an entire store line about Dr Benton's son possibly getting cochlear implants so he can hear.
Or if you can track down some of the Sesame Street episodes from the mid 70's when the character Linda who played the deaf librarian was introduced. My favorite episode was where Big Bird gives her big speakers as a present and gets all bummed out because she can't hear them but she still enjoys them because of the bass response.
Or the James at 15 episode where he wants to see what it's like to be deaf so wears these big ear muffs that cut off all the sound and nearly gets beat up.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 11:34 AM on December 6
"The majority of us 'hearies' respect and understand your handicap and do not purposely try to offend you."
hah!
Don't believe that for a second.
And they DEFINITELY do not understand.
I've been hung up on on relay calls, ignored by staff at restaurants, bars and stores.
As well as having people turn and walk away and avoid/ignore me later, once they realize I am HOH.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 11:44 AM on December 6
I'm considering changing my screen name to "Honky Hearie Breeder"
»» Submitted by grote at 12:26 PM on December 6
i do believe almost all SPPD squads have cameras . . .
»» Submitted by lyin' hearie fool at 2:03 PM on December 6
This would be a much less interesting thread if the cops had beaten the hell out of an Amish dude.
»» Submitted by mike s at 2:06 PM on December 6
Those amish dudes are burly I wouldn't mess with them.
It's also hard to run a red in a Surry.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 2:09 PM on December 6
As Deaf person, you cannot distinguish the difference between Deaf and hard of hearing persons!
Anyone who knew Doug Bahl knows that the cop was lying through his yellow teeth! Doug did NOT grab his shirt nor bit his thumb! He probably tapped on his arm to get his attention.
I did one time when I tap on the shoulder of a cop -- it FREAKED him out. It was ridiculous.
The cops protect each other -- they will do anything to defame Doug Bahl and the Deaf Community. That's why I said -- NEVER TRUST COPS!
R-
Derek - you're cherry-picking the articles to make your point. Do recall that the articles ALSO indicated no mention in the police report of Mr. Bahl's deafness, nor admission that the police exerted any force beyond pepper spray - and from the photographs of Mr. Bahl post-release (two black eyes and cuts on his head) there was obviously exertion of force. If those large details were left out, don't you think it's plausible that the rest of the police report is subject to question?
Baker - As it stands, Ridor's comments illicited very few comments, while mine would probably have caused the whole board to react.
I totally understand where you're coming from on this one - I found the majority of Ridor's comments to be exceptionally offensive and bigoted, but I chose to ignore him just as I try to ignore Bud, Jr., Mazasapa, and Raindogg666 on these message boards. Ridor is being intentionally hateful, and it seems that he's only looking for a fight. I'm not interested in Ridor's vitriol, I'm interested in Mr. Bahl's situation ending justly.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 2:42 PM on December 6
Ahh, of course.
And it this turns out to be not true, will will have a bunch of 'lying deaf fools' on our hands, won't we.
»» Submitted by baker at 2:03 PM on December 4
Baker
I was the one who passed on some information to Ridor about Doug Bahl. I was in touch with Doug's son regarding the issue, but then I couldn't get much out of Chris anyway due to legal matters. I suggest we all refrain from posting ridiculous messages until the matter is settled. I am sure we will find out the truth then. In the meantime, be patient, please.
»» Submitted by Peggy Virnig Mnich at 2:45 PM on December 6
I'm not bitter person. If you knew me in real life, I'm very easygoing person -- I have good friends in both groups (hearing and deaf). I date, kiss and sleep with hearing guys (!).
But they knew of my rules. My wishes. Ignorant hearing persons are classified as "typical hearies".
I do not *believe* the claim that you, Baker, said you respect/understand Deaf people.
There is a well known poem in the Deaf community -- You have to be Deaf to understand.
Your comments and thoughts, at times, were demeaning and stereotypical -- so I reserve the right to call you a "typical hearie fool".
R-
Anyone who knew Doug Bahl knows that the cop was lying through his yellow teeth!
Do you know Doug Bahl? Of course you don't. You're just some mouthy pain in the ass with a blog.
»» Submitted by typical hearie fool at 3:05 PM on December 6
I now know so much about Ridor.
I agree that something isn't right with this story. Most stories have one side, the other side, and then there's the truth.
The headlines look bad, police brutality is assumed. It's easy to jump to conclusions that cops like to drive around and beat up deaf people.
Hopefully the truth will come out, perhaps the traffic stop is on video. That would probably be the ideal situation.
I will tell you one thing though - a suspect doesn't get booked in jail for 4 days and get charged $6,000 bail for running a red light.
»» Submitted by Derek at 3:16 PM on December 6
I'm interviewing Doug for a story tonight on WCCO-TV at 10 p.m. There are things he won't be able to discuss because of pending legal charges, but we should be able to get a first-hand account of what happened in the Ramsey County jail over the weekend.
Baker...fyi you ARE a "bad guy" regardless...heh.
And that cops story is made up and a joke.
Man sitting in car accosts burly cop?
I don't think so.
Lies, lies, lies.
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 3:44 PM on December 6
"Anyone who knew Doug Bahl knows that the cop was lying through his yellow teeth!"
Damned whitist! What, yellow teeth mean dishonesty? We yellow teethers are better'n ya'll.
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 3:44 PM on December 6
THL: You obviously do NOT know how the Deaf Community operated these days. It is quite small minority -- especially with the ones who used ASL as a primary language. I have about 10 close friends who knew Doug Bahl very well in Twin Cities. Deaf people are quite connected with their Deaf pals across the nation. So sharing the messages/information via the videophones/internet/pagers are incredibly fast and accurate at times.
Peggy was not the only one who shared the information with me. Others did. I won't name them w/o their consent.
I'm inclined to believe my close friends whom they knew Doug Bahl than the lyin hearie cops or even you.
If you look at history between the hearing fools and the deaf people in general, lots of hearies manipulated, fooled and oppressed deaf people in general. And if Leigh wants to view me as bigoted -- fine with me. I remain to mock your kind until you respect us on equal basis.
R-
So your answer is no, then?
»» Submitted by typical hearie fool at 7:43 PM on December 6
Because of developments in a different story, my interview with Doug will not be airing tonight at ten. Hopefully it'll go Thursday. Sorry! At least now I'll get a minute to think about what I write before I put it on TV!
And if Leigh wants to view me as bigoted -- fine with me. I remain to mock your kind until you respect us on equal basis.
While I wouldn't be surprised if you did, I sure as hell hope you're not lumping me in with the "your kind" statement. I don't want to argue with you Ridor - jesus, I studied ASL for four years through college, highly considered being an interpreter until my current career path presented itself (and still might do it someday because the language is beautiful), had several deaf friends, and went to a myriad of functions put on by the local Deaf Community.
The fact that you're labeling all people "typical hearie fools" who haven't had adequate exposure to deafness is bigotry, plain and simple. Not to mention totally counterproductive toward educating the general population. When a kid asks a question in a classroom, the teacher usually responds with an answer that is not laden with personal judgments. It's, "because hearing doesn't affect the ability to drive;" NOT, "boy, you're sure a dumb kid - what a ridiculous question!"
I mean, c'mon, man. Let's try to work toward mutual understanding rather than name-calling. The latter is totally futile.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 9:16 PM on December 6
Leigha: I do not lump you in that category. Actually, there are two groups of hearing people that I categorized: The ones who are intelligent to treat others equally is labelled as ... hearing people. The stupid ones: Hearies.
Despite the fact that I have many friends who can hear, they knew of my position when it comes to deal with ignorant fools, I have no tolerance for these people.
I was not born to educate you or others, so don't expect me to take a minute to explain about my disability in order to enlighten your brain. That is what the books are for!
You see, I'm from a long line of Deaf families, many members of my clan were tolerant, patient and kind to hearing people -- they were trampled by hearing people all the time.
So I chose to take the different route -- that is not to educate, help or take care of your ignorance -- you plight in your own piss -- not my problem.
Don't like it? Not my problem, either.
Cheers,
R-
I feels the same way when dealing with the sometimes rampant anti-puppet prejudice on this site.
I've about had enough of you, you rotten puppet. You're all the same - boozing playboys. Careless, even in the face of nuclear disaster.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 11:06 PM on December 6
All right, ya skin puppet, that's exactly the sorta thing I was just talking about!
WOODY!
That's it. I'm done.
DAMMIT.
»» Submitted by »»» leigha at 11:24 PM on December 6
Jeez.
VERY COMMON HAPPENS BUT IF DEAF SIGN TO POLICE THAT HE OR SHE CANT HEAR USALLY THINGS GO SMOOTHLY IVE BEEN STOPPED OR PULLED OVER FEW TIMES MOST PERCENT OF TIMES POLICE UNDERSTAND MY GESTURES ALSO I SIGN TO POLICE IN SIGN LANG THAT I WANT TO WRITE ETC TWO THREE TIMES POLICE DONT UNDERSTAND JUST REPEAT WHAT I WANT TO WRITE BUT TELL U THE TRUTH SOME POLICE DO REFUSE TO WRITE OR MAKE ME STEP OUT THEN IT CAN GET SCARY IM LUCKY TO SURVIVED SUCH HAPPENS
»» Submitted by RUSTY SUNDEER at 11:22 PM on December 6
Plus I "hear" Kline beats up middle aged deaf guys.
Rat bastard Hearie.
»» Submitted by Raindog66 at 12:09 AM on December 6
I do not *believe* the claim that you, Baker, said you respect/understand Deaf people.
Believe what you will. I may not understand deafness to the level that others do, cuz I have not studied/focused on it. But i certainly respect deaf people.
There is a well known poem in the Deaf community -- You have to be Deaf to understand.
Sort of like "you wouldn't understand, it's a black thang"? So be it.
Your comments and thoughts, at times, were demeaning and stereotypical -- so I reserve the right to call you a "typical hearie fool".
How were my thoughts demeaning? All I argued was that I sincerely doubt that the police intentioanlly beat up on Doug because he was deaf, and I chastised people for their 'anti-cop' talking points. Call me what you will. I already have established a perception of you, so it really doesn't matter. We are both just 'cyber-beings' anyways.
»» Submitted by baker at 10:15 AM on December 7
What jumps out at me through this whole blog is all this information that is presented as fact. The Strib said this, I have a friend who knows someone.....on and on. Why don't you all show up at the trial and listen to the testimony. At least then you can make INFORMED guesses as to what happened.
»» Submitted by bob johnson at 11:36 PM on December 7
The picture of Bahl shows without a doubt that someone beat him up. The cops admit there was a struggle, that he was shot with a chemical irritant, and also acknowledge that he was not provided with an interpreter for days. The only facts that are in dispute are whether Bahl somehow brought it on himself by resisting arrest. What do you think are the chances of that?
»» Submitted by »»» TBartel at 9:20 AM on December 8
At least then you can make INFORMED guesses as to what happened.
bob, are you new to this board? being INFORMED has NOTHING to do with forming an opionion, and blathering endlessly about it.
The only facts that are in dispute are whether Bahl somehow brought it on himself by resisting arrest. What do you think are the chances of that?
The odds that a citizen resisted arrest compared to the odds a cop randomly decided to beat up a deaf person with no provocation whatsoever? please.
»» Submitted by whatev at 9:39 AM on December 8
"The odds that a citizen resisted arrest compared to the odds a cop randomly decided to beat up a deaf person with no provocation whatsoever? please."
Who says it has to be one of these options? It's also more than possible that Mr. Bahl made some gesture/action/movement intended to make the cop aware that he was deaf, the cop mistook that, and started the beating.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:19 AM on December 8
You can't blame doug for reaching his pocket. What if it was a lady that would reach her purse to get her driver license and registration, or old man trying to get his regristration from the glove component box? Would that mean that the cops would pepperspray everyone else who does that kind of thing? It does not make any sense and it is very pathetic for St. Paul police and attorney office to try to cover up their mistake and blamed Doug for the whole thing. Indeed, there is something wrong with the system out there at St. Paul.
»» Submitted by Jeff Justice at 12:07 PM on December 8
Doug Bahl's brother posted bail for him over a year ago! He has never spoken to him on how or when he will pay him back! He owes him hundreds and hundreds of dollars!
»» Submitted by AB at 1:46 PM on October 20
»»» = registered user. click on it to see the user's profile.
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