118 Comments:
You don't have to be from the south to be grotesquely insensitive.
»» Submitted by »»» msparber at 11:48 PM on February 11
In this part of St. Paul, Mac usually holds itself up as being superior to the other schools, especially University of St. Thomas. It gets a little ridiculous. Heck, we even had a Concordia party house a few years ago.
In deference to UST, I can't recall the Tommies doing anything quite this dumb in recent years. This is just the most bone=headed stunt by so-called educated people in ages. How much are parents paying in tuition for their kids to take part in this nonsense?
Can't want to hear the Mac administration try to wiggle its way out of this one.
(And it's Lary May, not Larry)
At Mac?!
Bastion of the Politically Correct?
Too weird.
(Your second-to-last link is misaimed, btw.)
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:49 AM on February 11
I think this is the intended target of that first link.
Look, obviously the kids didn't think things through very well. It was dumb. But, I don't think it's that bad. Sure, it might have been unconscious racism, serving as a reminder of past atrocities, but, you know, it also could have just been a joke. Just loosen up, people.
Hell, I really want to play with blackface, myself. Use it in a show or something.
»» Submitted by »»» naysan at 3:52 AM on February 12
I can't stand Mac kids. I interned with one at Merryl and he thought he was so superior and special and quit after like a month. These kids were probably the same ones that tried to throw the marihuana party not too long ago...
»» Submitted by »»» RodG at 8:38 AM on February 12
As always with comedy, even with blackface, there are shades of gray. The larger the party, the greater your chances of finding a mix of bonafide "I'm not a racist, but..." racists and race-sensitive jokesters.
Let me also remind everyone that we're just a month and change away from celebrating "Irishness" doing nothing more than binge drinking, and that Johns Hopkins is in Baltimore, and Maryland is no more a Southern state than Delaware.
»» Submitted by champs|bus at 8:46 AM on February 12
But Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon Line, as is (most) of Delaware.
»» Submitted by »»» mjm at 9:35 AM on February 12
We accept small amounts of racist behavior all of the time in the context of comedy - if it's intelligent, it functions as the saterical "ha, ha, how could we have ever actually believed this". This creates a line that's pretty complicated to draw but it's worth considering that these kids, being reasonably intelligent mac hippies, probably have a keener sense of the role of race than the vast majority of people. They'll probably do more in their lifetimes to combat REAL racism (race-stratified poverty, violence, homelessness, conviction rates, etc) than most people. At the very least, this is just stupidly blown out of proportion. Focus on harmless events like this makes us feel less guilty while we ignore the real problems.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 9:38 AM on February 12
White people walk like this!
Black people waaalk like thiiiiiiis!
»» Submitted by Def Comic Jam at 9:49 AM on February 12
sorry about the f'ed up linx everyone; and I swear to God I had "Lary" in my submitted post!
In deference to UST, I can't recall the Tommies doing anything quite this dumb in recent years.
Well there was the "Tommie of the Year" speech last year; apparently women who take birth control pills are "just selfish":
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 9:53 AM on February 12
I don't even know how to express how angry this makes me. Stupid little fucks.
What really chaps my ass about this whole thing is the response from the kids involved is, "Well, no one appeared to be offended, so we just kept on with it."
I don't think a "ghetto party" is inherently offensive, but blackface? And a Klan member?! Come on.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 9:59 AM on February 12
A "ghetto party" is much more offensive than a "politically incorrect" party because it singles out black people (usually by a bunch of a dumb white frat boys as opposed to socially concious mac kids) for ridicule.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 10:08 AM on February 12
I agree. Whether or not Mac kids should know better than a Texas frat is one thing, but they probably think they do know better. And at the end of the day, they still give themselves the right to have a cheap holiday in someone else's misery.
I don't think there's any difference, morally, between "ghetto" and "blackface."
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 10:12 AM on February 12
They ought to take them out of the protective cocoon of that campus and give them a little cultural immersion. Perhaps if the school took those little fuckers and dropped them, in full regalia, @ Penn & Lowry on a summer evening they could see just how funny and inoffesive they were being.
»» Submitted by grote at 10:06 AM on February 12
What is laughable is that uber-liberal institutions such as Mac elevate the notion of separateness and of protected classes to such a degree that it is inevitable that it becomes fodder for events such as this.
The institution actually propogates the behavior. And since it is part and parcel of the institutions ouvre, why would the kids see anything really 'wrong' with it?
They're just acting out the very teachings of the institution.
Get it?
Simple really.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 10:11 AM on February 12
I think it's absurd, and I once wrote an entire play in blackface. Sure, it's meant in jest, yeah, ha ha. That's what every bullying asshole claims when they behave badly. Sorry about that I said about your mother, it was a joke, can't you take a fucking joke?
Mean-spirited humor, targeted at the weak or the small or the powerless, is the basic tool of the bully. And, if the bullying was unintentional, well, does that really make it better? Is it really okay that a group of white kids are oblivious to the fact that putting a white man in blackface and putting a rope around his neck is obscenely offensive?
Is it a minor crime? Sure. It ain't an actual lynching. It ain't slavery. It ain't an epidemic of poverty. But that doesn't mean it should just be laughed off like it was nothing. It's an insult, and should be addressed as such. You know, when people paint a swastika on a car, it's not the Holocaust all over again -- but it ain't right, either.
»» Submitted by »»» msparber at 10:13 AM on February 12
Sparber you are WAY too sensitive and PC.
I am offended that many black people think it is 'white' (ie undesireable) to speak clearly and to value education.
Is that PC, too?
Of course not.
Game on.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 10:25 AM on February 12
i was waiting to see how the right wing brain triangulates between contempt for Mac kids and saying racism is no big deal, so, kudos.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 10:28 AM on February 12
Painting a swastika on a car, if the person impacted is Jewish and that was done knowingly, is pretty much a crime of intimidation, Matt. A moronic party theme, in which, btw, many more groups were portrayed aside from black Americans, is hardly comparable in my opinion.
Personally, and on a much lighter note, I blame this mess on the larger pressure of having a party theme at all. We need to make it okay for people to have parties without a theme.
»» Submitted by addymal at 10:20 AM on February 12
"larger pressure"?? yeah, way to reach out, paris
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 10:31 AM on February 12
j/k
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 10:32 AM on February 12
I think there's a precedent for humor in poor taste. The story seems fixated on black folk (like my father), but eventually points out that the attendees ran the gamut of ethnic and religious stereotypes. I'm increasingly inclined to think that the offensiveness was simply one-upsmanship, rather than overt racism, especially with a rainbow of culture degradation.
And it's still a fine departure from the kids down the road who live the stereotype of the obnoxious white preppie at St. Thomas.
»» Submitted by »»» champs at 10:23 AM on February 12
Did anyone go as themselves to the party?
Student in Black Face: What are you dressed up as?
Student in Ultimate Frisbee Intramural Tee, Camo Army Cargos from JCrew and Birkenstocks: I'm student on his way to becoming part of the liberal elite.
Student in Black Face: I should have thought of that! I would have saved $350 on shoe polish, FUBU and Nike Airforce 1's.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 10:42 AM on February 12
i can't believe I am going to agree with bud (sigh).
so before I do, "Go Dixie Chicks & Go Dan Wilson!"
(guilt partially assuaged)
I am confused. Why can't a bunch of people, esp. students, caught up in an academic and very PC atmosphere, full of inclusiveness, etc., have a dumb party where everyone dresses up as the worst parody of racism they can think of? Why can't that be funny?
Why do you, and the Mac administration, get to govern their expression?
Isn't parody always subversive & dangerous? It's risky because it's open to interpretation. Does it always have to be funny to everyone?
And why do these images get to forever retain their power? Why can't we choose to laugh at them and diminish them?
This seems to be an issue where the "classic liberal" always trips and refuses to see the bump in the rug.
»» Submitted by russ at 10:42 AM on February 12
Russ, was that really agreeing with bud? I mean, it didn't feel like it. Tone makes a difference and I agree with you.
»» Submitted by addymal at 10:55 AM on February 12
It would be one thing if it were, say, some sort of demonstration on campus. Having a party strictly for the purpose of their own entertainment is totally different.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 11:01 AM on February 12
I guess my question is who participated in this party. Was it a racially/ethnically/gender mixed group of kids partying together, or was it just a bunch of white guys?
»» Submitted by »»» ranty at 11:07 AM on February 12
Isn't the noted liberal fraud Kofi Annan a Mac grad?
Next we'll find out Barry Obama has a white mother!
»» Submitted by bud jr at 11:23 AM on February 12
There's no doubt what these kids did was offensive. And there's little doubt that the students lacked the life experience and broader world view to truly understand what the outer limits of humor are before crossing over into overt racism.
What will be really interesting to watch, though, is whether or not the ensuing conversation becomes so muddled in PC half-speak that there's no real learning or progress made. It's much like the North High - Samuel discussion. Until we have a frank, perhaps brutal conversation about race, we're simply going to spin our wheels. I would love to see Mac have the REAL conversation instead of having a bunch of kids sit in a big circle and trade carefully worded niceties.
While the notion of PC is positive, it also puts horrible restraints on any meaningful conversation about religion, race, gender, sexuality,etc. Students (and adults for that matter) are so concerned about saying something wrong that they say nothing at all.
»» Submitted by »»» nateek at 10:55 AM on February 12
How about a story of true evil to put this all in perspective?
Yes, it's from Katherine Kersten, but it's not an attack on gay marriage, for once
»» Submitted by namelessJoe at 11:44 AM on February 12
yeah, pulling racist shit in secret, for your own entertainment, is so much better than holding a big rally
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 11:57 AM on February 12
yeah, pulling racist shit in secret, for your own entertainment, is so much better than holding a big rally
1. I am in no way arguing that there is not something racist about this.
2. My point was if they were going for parody/satire, as some people tried to argue, the way to do that would be publicly, not privately.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 12:10 PM on February 12
ok, gotcha.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 12:12 PM on February 12
I read somewhere that one of the most popular racist music labels is based in St. Paul. I think they released cds by the evil little blonde twins that got a lot of press the last couple of years.
»» Submitted by going back to whittier at 12:01 PM on February 12
Also, it would be particularly interesting to know the racial makeup of the folks at the party in light of this:
A University of Dayton sociologist who analyzed journals kept by 626 white college students found the students behaved substantially differently when they were in the company of other whites than when they were with other races.
Part of the culture?
When the students, who were asked to record their interactions with other people, were alone with other white students, racial stereotypes and racist language were surprisingly common, researcher Leslie Picca found. One student reported hearing the n-word among white students 27 times in a single day.
The results suggest white students have little sense of shame about racial insults and stereotyping and treat them as simply a part of the culture.
This is a new generation who grew up watching The Cosby Show, Picca said. They have the belief that racism isnt a problem anymore so the words they use and the jokes they tell arent racist.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 12:17 PM on February 12
someone needs to tell those privledged-ass cracka motherfuckers to step off and show some respect, yo! just becuase they might listen to rap music (outkast? rap for whitey) doesn't make it ok to be a racist busta.
»» Submitted by G at 12:42 PM on February 12
eric,
That's believable and interesting, but I still feel like we're forgetting who we're talking about. The students at one of the most progressive and highly-regarded liberal arts schools in the country are about the most likely people to understand the problem of racism. This whole thing would be a lot more interesting if we were talking about U of M frat boys or St. Thomas conservative morons. Granted we don't know the students in question as individuals, but that they understood the situation pretty well seems very likely to me.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 1:09 PM on February 12
This whole thing would be a lot more interesting if we were talking about U of M frat boys or St. Thomas conservative morons.
I think we need to stop pretending that Mac kids are any better than kids from any other college. The U of M and St Thomas both have highly intelligent students. I know some from both. We have to remember that kids aged 18-21 can be quite dumb. It doesn't matter where they go to school.
The students at one of the most progressive and highly-regarded liberal arts schools in the country are about the most likely people to understand the problem of racism.
The point of this entire fracas is that this is NOT TRUE.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 1:24 PM on February 12
The students at one of the most progressive and highly-regarded liberal arts schools in the country
That's funny, I'd never heard of it until I moved here. I think y'all want to feel a bit more important, but dartmouth it is not.
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 1:32 PM on February 12
I'll say it again: Just because they didn't think anyone was offended doesn't mean it wasn't offensive.
This whole thing would be a lot more interesting if we were talking about U of M frat boys or St. Thomas conservative morons.
I think we would expect it from U of M frat boys or moronic Tommies, and that would make it pretty easy to bash them and write it off. Supposedly, Mac kids are supposed to know better, and clearly they do not.
The point of this entire fracas is that this is NOT TRUE.
Or what geoff said.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 2:17 PM on February 12
Koala: All populations of a sample contain outliers. Additionally, anecdotal evidence is a poor substitute for actual research methodology.
Geoff: The point of this entire fracas is that people think that the incident makes it untrue that Macalester is progressive, which it does not. The incident is just that--an incident. While one student was quoted as saying it was symptomatic, it isn't a racism particular to Macalester, but, if it is racist at all, it is a form of underlying cultural racism that hardly carries with it the same sort of overt manifestations that can regularly be seen on other college campuses that have also come in the news in recent weeks--a distinction not claimed by Macalester students being interviewed. That was a tragically long sentence, but I am at work and can't spend time cleaning it up--you're smart people.
Wayne: Are you an academic? I mean, you alone aren't a particularly interesting or telling data point without something a lot more substantive. Rankings that are based on opinions of peer institutions create a decent measurement of respect for a given institution, but one person as a data point says more about what someone in a given class, educational background and region might have to say about a particular school than where it sits in some sort of ranked order.
»» Submitted by Addymal at 2:13 PM on February 12
As it happened i ran into a bunch of the party goers later that night after the party including the 'klan member' and blackface guy, as well as the aborted fetus...
It is depressing that all the activist stuff we did at mac (i am '05) we never got the kind of attention (now its at about 200 hits on google news now via AP and UPI global wires) that a couple offensive costumes got. I am also perplexed about which types of offensive costumes are over the line.
the impression i got from the offensive guys in question (and one of them himself is from a heavily stereotyped identity) was that they didn't wear the klan hood or the rope once they made their entree to the party.
i can totally understand the perception of 'rich white privilege' revolting people hearing about this third-hand, while i sort of thought at the time it was a reasonably creative response to the more narrowly focused stereotype-driven parties like the grim "pimps and hos" etc.
This may not be a warm and fuzzy sentiment, but the only way to defeat the evil power of these symbols is to drag them into the net of criticism and parody, not privilege the icon of the noose or the fetus as 'sacred/profane imagery' that can't ever be applied for satire or drinking.
But then it seems like you're drinking with evil powers. And that kind of sucks.
i sympathize with people that were offended by the concept, but in return I demand a 3-dimensional matrix of stereotype costume acceptability, so that we can have parties that are slightly edgy without ruffling feathers. or something. Italian Godfather is acceptable, for example, but aunt Jemima is not. Bravo, everyone.
Meanwhile Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima are still advertised on sale in aisle 6.
Liberal Outrage: Hypocritical Since 1923
»» Submitted by bud jr at 2:31 PM on February 12
bud jr: babbling since god-knows-when.
which posts do you mean when you say "liberal outrage" and why exactly is it hypocritical?
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:43 PM on February 12
and what happened in 1923? just askin.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:49 PM on February 12
wait, you want to give me a lesson in stats, addymal?
thanks, I really needed that. first off, college rankings are notorious bullshit, secondly perception outside of academia is pretty important too. everyone's heard of harvard, no matter where you go in the country. Macalester? not so much so. That was my point.
But really, do explain some more basic math to me! It's not like I'm a mathematician or anything. I could really use some help in demystifying statistics!
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 2:47 PM on February 12
look out, bud...the fact police are on your scent.
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 2:51 PM on February 12
See: ericam
See also: msparber
Max - attacks on the message are always welcome; attacks on the messenger are tiresome and non-productive.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 2:49 PM on February 12
Humor, satire and comedy hurt my feelings. I can no longer read "The Onion" because of the depression and feelings of un-worthiness that follow. Let's form a commitee and hire some lawyers and lobbyists, maybe then I can feel better about myself.
»» Submitted by Chester at 2:35 PM on February 12
I still fail to see what's acceptable about dressing up as a Klan member lynching a white guy in blackface for the purposes of going to a party, "for fun."
Why shouldn't I be outraged?
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 2:54 PM on February 12
bud jr., inspiring productive dialogue since NEVER
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 2:56 PM on February 12
When you actually make a point, bud, I'll go after the message. Incoherence is not an argument.
I will say it again: political correctness / liberal elitism such as that propogated by institutions such as Macalester CAUSE this very thing.
Aunt Jemima is not 'offensive' unless you really believe that happy black aunties who provide tasty pancakes are somehow inferior - BECAUSE they are black.
Uncle Ben is not offensive unless you believe that kindly Oriental porters are somehow inferior - BECAUSE they are Oriental.
Sidebar: The usual cast of laughable 'community leaders' who are out for Don Samuel's neck are doing so because they don't think Don is 'black enough' (he's Jamaiccan), and are therefore the real 'racists' here.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 2:52 PM on February 12
ericam - you were not AT the party, therefore you did not SEE the subject at hand, or experience it's context, therefore you are voicing emotions based on heresay and a politically correct kneejerk reaction of liberal guilt.
What is it that you are so afraid of?
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:00 PM on February 12
go looking for old aunt jemima sambo-style ads and you'll find them in less than 2 minutes
Wayne, mine was less about statistics and more about Sociology, but obviously I've hurt your feelings and that wasn't my intention. I didn't say anything about mathematics or even statistical principles, so I'm a little confused where you're coming from on that.
Yes college rankings are notorious bullshit, I agree. I was talking about peer evaluations, which are a completely different animal from the sort of analysis that can be performed using things like the US News and World Report and Princeton Review methodologies. Looking at what the Deans and Department Chairs at accredited institutions think about schools nationally reveals a ranking that I find more interesting that a methodology that factors in endowment and library volumes, factors either beside the point or out of touch with the times (though I would like for physical volumes to matter more).
Now, as for what people think outside of the academy? I disagree 90%. What people think of the academy, outside of the academy, makes no difference at all unless they have been systemically alienated from their education because of something like lack of access, if the conversation is the relative virtue of the education of a given institution. Name recognition among people walking around Camp Snoopy or Eden Prairie High School seems to me to be a pretty terrible way to establish anything, but surely you aren't suggesting that...
»» Submitted by addymal at 2:53 PM on February 12
What in the hell is 'wrong' with Aunt Jemima?
Signed,
Pancake Lover
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:07 PM on February 12
Sidebar: The usual cast of laughable 'community leaders' who are out for Don Samuel's neck are doing so because they don't think Don is 'black enough' (he's Jamaiccan), and are therefore the real 'racists' here.
No, actually it's because Don Samuels is supposed to be a community leader and he made a completely i, unfounded, damaging, wrong-headed and flat out untrue nflammatory remark regarding a public school. That is the central fact here...you and your ilk are trying to drag issues of race and emotion into the argument because that's what you do.
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 3:05 PM on February 12
Really? Is that why there were so many letters of support for him in the Strib yesterday from sober minded citizens?
Who is making it a 'racial' issue again?
Did yopu READ the stats about North's graduation rates?
Of course not.
BTW:
http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=1353&si=126
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:10 PM on February 12
"everyone's heard of harvard, no matter where you go in the country. Macalester?"
Talk about apples and oranges. What does Harvard have, like 30,000 students? Macalaster has 2,000, maybe. Macalaster's reputation among schools its size is pretty well-established.
Hongpong wins.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 3:10 PM on February 12
What the hell do Randolph Staten and Spike Moss have to do with the issue of graduation rates at North High, which are, to say the least, deplorable?
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:12 PM on February 12
Since we are on the topic of college stereotypes, we should throw out our college, the common stereotype, and what we are doing personally to combat that stereotype.
I'll start. I graduated from the University of St Thomas. UST is known for it's prickish, white hat wearing business majors. I was a CS major from a blue collar family in a small town in WI. I am now married to an ex-hippy dance instructor and my mother-in-law is taking classes at a UCC seminary (very liberal). I've never set foot in Tiffany's Bar and Grill. I've only been back to campus to use the bathroom while biking through Highland Park.
haha "Oriental"?? bud are you posting from 1923? is that it?
(the Uncle Ben character is black, too, btw)
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 3:22 PM on February 12
This may not be a warm and fuzzy sentiment, but the only way to defeat the evil power of these symbols is to drag them into the net of criticism and parody, not privilege the icon of the noose or the fetus as 'sacred/profane imagery' that can't ever be applied for satire or drinking.
Didn't Kevin Smith just get through beating on this one?
»» Submitted by »»» zenrhino at 3:33 PM on February 12
Evil power?
Now we're getting somewhere.
WHO is it that empowers these "symbols" to BE evil?
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:39 PM on February 12
This may not be a warm and fuzzy sentiment, but the only way to defeat the evil power of these symbols is to drag them into the net of criticism and parody, not privilege the icon of the noose or the fetus as 'sacred/profane imagery' that can't ever be applied for satire or drinking.
Satire is a lot more sophisticated than what we're discussing.
um, the same people that think the colored people on rice boxes are "Oriental"?
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 3:47 PM on February 12
Satire is a lot more sophisticated than what we're discussing.
That may be true, but do we really want to set up a situation where "good" satire is ok and "bad" satire, we string them up and they end up the national news? Clearly this is on the satire side of satire vs. hate speech (call it "attempted satire"), so why haggle over whether it's crappy or not?
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 3:46 PM on February 12
Erica is going to call me a fuckin' idiot (I deserve it, I know) - but I'm with russ and HongPong on this.
What was the intent of these kids? We don't really know for sure, so we're all just projecting and speculating.
Wrap your head around this: Perfectly moral, decent people can find pleasure and humor in the shocking, the offensive, the racist, and the inappropriate.
In fact, of you want to ruin comedy by studying it, you'll find the core of what's funny is often: Surprise, going against expectations, violating a social norm. The absurd, the unacceptable.
Mac does have a reputation as the most politically correct campus in the upper midwest and beyond. Is it any surprise some student would rebel? None at all.
You scoff at the idea they'd want to do this privately. Of course they'd want to do it privately. See my original point - most people can't fathom a decent person behaving so inappropriately. My own humor skews deep into Sara Silverman (uhh) / South Park territory, and that's how I am with my close friends. If I cracked the same jokes around my ultra Christian aunt, for example, she'd be repulsed and offended.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't be offended or outraged, or that these kids are magically free of racism. But let's backaway from the kneejerk reaction that these are a bunch of hateful racist idiots.
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 3:30 PM on February 12
Thank you.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 3:54 PM on February 12
Ok, maybe I reacted a bit too strongly. I know you were probably talking about the common fallacy used all-too-often on the interwebs where someone's personal experience is supposed to discount something with plenty of evidence, but I suppose I confused the earlier part with you saying that the statistical significance of my opinion is nil (which it is, but I didn't need to be told that).
Name recognition among people walking around Camp Snoopy or Eden Prairie High School seems to me to be a pretty terrible way to establish anything, but surely you aren't suggesting that...
No, definitely not. But I don't really count myself amongst the lumbering masses at camp snoopy anyway. I may not be permenantly ensconced in academia, but I'm familiar enough with it to be aquainted with some of the better-known schools (and to recognize that the one I attended is not in that group). All I was trying to say is that Mac may be highly regarded in some circles, but it doesn't have the wider name-recognition where educated people in other fields would know about it. Just as an example of sorts, I imagine if you were to ask people in various parts of the country to name the top 10 best schools in the country, only people from in and around Minnesota would mention Macalester. It always works that way, though.
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 3:43 PM on February 12
I can guarantee that Aunt Jemima would NEVER serve cold pancaked to Mac Hammond.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:53 PM on February 12
Aunt Jemima would slap that boy upside the head for being such a fool and mistakin' the word of the Lawd.
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 4:01 PM on February 12
I'm confused by the idea that this type of behavior would be a different thing if it came from U of M students rather than Mac students.
The implication seems to be that people who pay more for college (e.g. upper class) are not expected to be racist, whereas regular schmucks at the land grant school are.
Hmm.
»» Submitted by »»» ranty at 3:58 PM on February 12
chuck, the thing is, I agree with you, I really do. I'm not actually offended by any of this, personally. Getting offended by proxy is ridiculous. And it's not like I don't get the humor, either; shit doesn't have to be pbs-approved to be funny.
But the problem is, whenever there's a really over-the-line and stupid thing that happens, white people want to fall all over themselves to be the first to say "oh BIG DEAL it's not like they were KILLING JEWS or OWNING SLAVES so it must not be a big problem!! Everything was so great and post-racial around until you started COMPLAINING"
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 4:05 PM on February 12
"humor" that is. south park hasn't been actually ell-oh-ell funny in forever, either.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 4:06 PM on February 12
I have it on good authority that Uncle Ben's mother was oriental.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 4:07 PM on February 12
I have it on good authority bud jr's mother was drunk for the entire pregnancy and smoked a few packs a day.
sup, FAS-baby!
»» Submitted by sayin' at 4:10 PM on February 12
The implication seems to be that people who pay more for college are not expected to be racist, whereas regular schmucks at the land grant school are.
That's just a coincidence. I'm making a very (perhaps dangerously) broad generalization about the types of students who attend these schools, and most importantly, I was picking on a particular type of UMN student, the young republican who's working on his MBA, a type of student that probably exists pretty rarely at Macalaster. I'm sure Mac has many, many more sociology and various liberal arts and social science majors per capita that are much more interested and sensitive to racial issues, and I'm will to guess that goes for the student body as a whole. The type of students Macalster attracts are probably not going to pull a stunt like this without having a keen sense of the issues surrounding it. I still find the big-school "ghetto" theme parties many times over more offensive.
For the record I'm a UMN student and I've met a fair amount of Mac students that drive me nuts, but I'm willing to stand by my original assertion that the students involved in this understand the issues surrounding it, and that it was certainly satirical.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 4:05 PM on February 12
geoff: totally. i hear ya.
and really, the whole KKK/noose thing goes beyond mere political incorrectness. it's like... peeing on a baby.
shit, that made me laugh. i have a problem.
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 4:14 PM on February 12
i bet UMN "ghetto" parties are more racially diverse and more fun.
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 4:18 PM on February 12
Hey you guys! Know what was really funny? SLAVERY! AH-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAA! MAN, THEY TOTALLY TREATED PEOPLE LIKE ANIMALS AND MADE THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANTED! That shit is sooooooo hilarious! And then once they were forced to acknowledge that black people had rights as human beings, they decided to just kill them indiscriminately! That sure is a side-splitter!
I mean, whoo! Man! Funny shit right there!
You know what else is totally hilarious? The Holocaust! Oooh, I'd go on, but I'm laughing so hard I just peed myself a little!
»» Submitted by CLASSIC at 4:19 PM on February 12
Yeah, I gotta go with Chuck on that one.
I don't have numbers for the ethnicity of Mac students vs. UMN students, but I feel pretty safe in saying that the U is more diverse.
I don't care how tiny little private schools teach "diversity," if they don't have a diverse student body, and if they're full of rich white kids from the suburbs, they're likely to have more predjudices.
How can you be a sensitive, pro-diversity, blabiddy-blah if you're SURROUNDED BY WHITE PEOPLE all the damn time?
»» Submitted by »»» ranty at 4:20 PM on February 12
Let's all gather 'round Charlie Chaplin in The Great Dictator.
(too soon?)
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 4:22 PM on February 12
Perfectly moral, decent people can find pleasure and humor in the shocking, the offensive, the racist, and the inappropriate.
I'm not saying they're hateful racist idiots. I'm saying that what they did was offensive, whether they intended it to be or not, whether some people think it's funny or not. And they shouldn't be surprised that people are offended. If they are surprised, then they're idiots.
Y'all telling me I shoudn't be offended, or maybe I might have even enjoyed it had I been there, is a bunch of bullshit.
Okay, I'm done.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 4:24 PM on February 12
Macalester student body breakdown by ethnicity. Only 56% white. 12% International. 7% Asian. 4% Black. 4% Hispanic.
Couldn't find info for U of M quickly.
ranty, Macalester isn't significantly less diverse the University of Minnesota on racial/ethnic backgrounds, in fact, in one reading, it is more diverse by a decent bit.
I do happen to have the numbers..
In the Fall of 2005 the University of Minnesota and Macalester
Domestic Students of Color at UMN-TC: 14.4%
Domestic Students of Color at Macalester: 13.5%
International Students at UMN-TC: 7.1%
International Students at Macalester: 12.6%
If you want to combine the two, then Macalester does come out with a student body that has a higher percentage of non-white/non-domestic students.
UMN-TC Composite: 21.5%
Macalester Composite: 25.7%
Sources include publically available enrollment numbers on both institutions websites--Fall 2005 used because of the limits of top level availability from UMN-TC. Best! -Addymal
»» Submitted by addymal at 4:35 PM on February 12
International is a race now?
My stats deviate from those in the Macalester Admissions factbook entry because I included all part-time enrollments at both institutions and because that information was from a different year--in case anyone is keeping track.
»» Submitted by addymal at 4:42 PM on February 12
erica: i agree.
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 4:43 PM on February 12
Well then.
I guess I stand corrected.
»» Submitted by »»» ranty at 4:47 PM on February 12
and I screwed up the numbers! ARGH!
REVISION IN THE TEXT!
In the Fall of 2005 the University of Minnesota and Macalester
Domestic Students of Color at UMN-TC: 14.4%
Domestic Students of Color at Macalester: 15.6%
International Students at UMN-TC: 7.1%
International Students at Macalester: 12.6%
If you want to combine the two, then Macalester does come out with a student body that has a higher percentage of non-white/non-domestic students.
UMN-TC Composite: 21.5%
Macalester Composite: 27.9%
»» Submitted by dummymal at 4:45 PM on February 12
CLASSIC:
It's true, slavery, the holocaust, and even AIDS can be funny! Try watching basically any episode of "South Park" or "Family Guy".
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 4:52 PM on February 12
All right, neither of those examples have been funny in years.
Remember that time when Peter Griffin was in a group of barbershop singers and he went to the room of the patient and gave him his full-blown AIDS diagnosis? It was pretty damn funny, Jack. And the reason? The juxtaposition of a truly profound and life-changing diagnosis with this jarringly upbeat and nearly-anachronistic musical styling.
Maybe jeffk will have us all over and show it to us sometime.
»» Submitted by addymal at 4:59 PM on February 12
Except the writers on Family Guy, South Park etc are a lot more intelligent than some doofuses dressing up for a party. Sorry man, they weren't making a point with offensive humour, they were just being retarded. Yeah, I'm being offensive to developmentally disabled people right now too.
»» Submitted by doesn't take a genius at 5:04 PM on February 12
Years? Season 10 of "South Park" has been pretty solid.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 5:12 PM on February 12
I have that song on mp3.
South Park, 10 solid years? Um, well maybe the years before they just started making fun of the previous week's headlines. At least Family Guy doesn't have anything to do with anything, which takes at least a wit of creativity.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 5:15 PM on February 12
*whit*
»» Submitted by »»» ranty at 5:18 PM on February 12
I didn't say 10 solid years, I said season 10 was solid. The dog whisperer episode, the cartman as the hall monitor episode, and the world of warcraft episode? all good. But I suppose this is a *bit* off topic.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 5:48 PM on February 12
the dog whisperer is one of the funniest SP episodes ever!
South Park, Daily Show and Colbert pretty much provide the most biting social commentary around.
(please note: author does not intend to equate offensive Macalaster student actions with funny cartoons or biting social commentary.)
»» Submitted by »»» chuck at 6:11 PM on February 12
Black liberation affairs committee?
are black students at mcalester really not free?Or did the 'L' simply make the acronym work?
»» Submitted by baker at 7:18 PM on February 12
I go to school with loads of privileged kids who went to places like Carlton, Mac, and Dartmouth. I've heard more racist bullshit from them than I ever did in my undergrad at the U. It's amazing how a kid who doesn't have black friends or neighbors can feel so "in" on the joke, because daddy paid for a semster in Belize.
If my cracker-ass self had been at that party, I would have rolled my eyes, called them douchebags, and stolen their beer.
If I were black and I saw that at a party, I'd probably run like hell.
That, to me, is what makes the joke not so funny.
»» Submitted by yepnope at 8:04 PM on February 12
geoff: "haha 'Oriental'?? bud are you posting from 1923? is that it?"
What's wrong with "Oriental"? I see quite a few Asian-owned "Oriental" markets around town.
»» Submitted by Pants at 8:55 PM on February 12
"And, if the bullying was unintentional, well, does that really make it better?"
- - -
Hugely.
Social tradition of shades of guilt has historically followed the same path as common law and its progeny - meaning, intent has always been key. An act of negligence - the "oops!" thing - has never been equated with an intentional bad act. Drop a rock on my head by accident, and you've been negligent, and you may end up paying money. Drop it on my head on purpose, and you've been criminal, and you may pay by forfeiting your liberty.
The intent of the actor has only recently become an unimportant thing, and only then in the PC arts. Say the wrong thing unintentionally, so that someone somewhere can claim offense, and your intent doesn't seem to matter anymore. If you didn't know that Aleuts are supremely insulted by marmoset fur, and you ask one if his cool new coat is marmoset, well, by gawd, you SHOULD have known it, and so you're as evil as the people who intentionally taunt them with marmosets.
It ain't right. Intent matters.
.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:36 AM on February 12
just because they didn't intend for something to be racist that doesn't make it any less racist.
»» Submitted by jeremy_b at 1:17 AM on February 13
For the record I'm a UMN student and I've met a fair amount of Mac students that drive me nuts, but I'm willing to stand by my original assertion that the students involved in this understand the issues surrounding it, and that it was certainly satirical.
I'm going to have to agree with jeffk on this one. If you look at the intent of the party, to parody political correctness, they knew exactly what they were doing. They understood the issues surrounding it. I'm not saying it was right, but I am saying that whatever "campus dialogue" they have is probably going to be a huge waste of time. I'm black and I go to a liberal arts college out east and several times the issue of satire/offensiveness has come up during my time here. While I would say that this party may have been equally offensive, I would hesitate to put it in the same category as the Tarleton St, etc. parties.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 2:34 AM on February 13
I'm going to go to a party at mac dressed like Hitler! Achtung! Heil!
»» Submitted by Laugh Riot at 9:59 AM on February 13
What's wrong with "Oriental"? I see quite a few Asian-owned "Oriental" markets around town.
Stuff is Oriental. People are Asian.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 10:49 AM on February 13
I have such fond memories of the Northeast Orient Airlines commercials from my youth. Sitting at the table eating Apples and Cinnamon Instant Quaker Oats listening to WCCO when the NOA ad would come on.
Northwest Orient...Aiiiiiiirliiiiiiines! Bing bong Bing.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 10:57 AM on February 13
I enjoy pancakes with Aunt Jemima.
I also enjoy Jeanette Trompeter's newscasts.
I wonder if she has a Valentine?
»» Submitted by bud jr at 11:29 AM on February 13
Because I'm a very lonely and sad old man. Please, won't someone love me?
I'm just bitter because I was in love with a liberal lass once and she left me, so I hate all liberals now.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 11:44 AM on February 13
Impersonator.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 11:46 AM on February 13
I was in love with a liberal lass once
Impossible. I think they all play for the other team.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 12:07 PM on February 13
Nah...just avoid the ones in Birkenstocks and print dresses and you'll be ok 90% of the time.
»» Submitted by »»» g rote at 12:08 PM on February 13
Or in the fireman's uniforms...
»» Submitted by bud jr at 1:29 PM on February 13
»»» = registered user. click on it to see the user's profile.
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Racist Party at Macalester Under Investigation: Erica M:. There have been a whole bunch of stories lately about college students holding parties with themes like "ghetto," "gangsta," and "politically incorrect." (See related articles list.) I wouldn't be surprised to see folks at a ...
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