145 Comments:
Honestly, I've been fairly impressed at the ability of conservative bloggers to fend off these accusations. But I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with placing blame - that's how you fix it, after all.
»» Submitted by »»» jeffk at 11:31 AM on August 7
Eric Black's article at the Minnesota Monitor is pretty level headed.
Lambert and Coleman are both conspiracy theory liberals for the most part, theyre not credible. And one of them is a complete joke of a metro communist - er, columnist.
Theyres no reason anything should be off the table at this point. We're setting ourseleves up for some irony down the road though if this turns out to be less about "structural deficiency' and more about some as of yet unknwon convergence of events.
»» Submitted by 108 at 11:28 AM on August 7
108- I was also going to point out Eric Black's article after seeing this post. I agree. Very level headed.
»» Submitted by »»» s4xton at 11:34 AM on August 7
The two biggies..
Conservative false premise: we must delay discussion as some sign of respect.
Liberal false premise: government is inadeqautely funded.
»» Submitted by 108 at 11:34 AM on August 7
I think we wait until the missing are recovered to discuss what happens next and wait until the NTSB investigation is over to discuss who is at fault, if anyone. The first is simply decent and respectful. The second is an admission that until we know why the bridge fell, we really don't know where any responsibility lies.
The media doesn't have the capability to conduct the investigation itself. Its job is to report on the investigation and ask the necessary questions that the investigators cannot.
Speculating, throwing about wild opinions, throwing political arrows, none of that adds anything to anything. I know we all like our food fast and our news in 30-second soundbytes, but we all need to exercise some patience.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 11:28 AM on August 7
Pointing fingers may not solve anything. But frankly, I get tired of Pollyanna crap editorials like the one in the Pioneer Press admonishing people to not point fingers. I mean, I think that's our right, isn't it? This a free society, not kindergarten roundup.
The nonsense reminded me of why I usually do not read that horrid editorial page.
As for most of the blogs and other print pundicts, I'd give Eric Black my highest grade.
Where I think the media has failed in the past is -- why are you not reading and covering the reports on these bridges? Or is that not trendy enough?
If anyone wants to speculate or place blame, try looking back to 1990 when the first report was made naming the bridge as "deficient". Who really cares which party or person(s) is to blame? This tragedy is the collective fault of years of political bickering from both sides of the aisle. The fact that its reconstruction has now been fast-tracked is nothing short of a quick game of catch-up in the wake of years of government inadequacy.
»» Submitted by »»» sornie at 11:39 AM on August 7
I actually dont think theres much 'blame' to go around. An event like this is too hard to foresee. The best engineering available said the bridge wouldn't collapse.
»» Submitted by 108 at 11:51 AM on August 7
I think we should be gathering facts at this point and determining where the fault lies, not so much so that we can lay blame on any guilty parties, but so that we can prevent such an event from happening in the future. If you're going to point fingers on this event, I think fingers are going to have to be pointed all over the nation since there are many, many bridges that have been found to be "deficient" across the country. This one just happened to be the one that gave out. It seems to me that we need to be looking at this as a greater problem of having an older, outdated, and possibly dangerously under-maintained infrastructure. That's the issue that needs to be addressed before we have another bridge collapse or some similar event.
»» Submitted by »»» tara_r at 11:49 AM on August 7
"Liberal false premise: government is inadeqautely funded."
knowing that no funding would have fixed this bridge collapse, transportation funding has not been good the past couple years. hence, after tons of knock-down drag-out fights w/ the legislature on taxes over the years, pawlenty gave in to the gas tax about 5 minutes after the bridge went down.
»» Submitted by nope at 11:49 AM on August 7
Blame should be placed on the governors who failed, for whatever reason, to put bickering legislators on notice that infrastructure spending is a critical role of government.
»» Submitted by realist at 11:52 AM on August 7
knowing that no funding would have fixed this bridge collapse, transportation funding has not been good the past couple years
I don't even think infrastructure spending has been bad. I'm not going to 'blame' lightrail, but it represents a signifcant investment in infrastructure. Its just a different focus.
pawlenty gave in to the gas tax about 5 minutes after the bridge went down.
This still might not be the correct response, but it is an understandable response to understandable hysteria at this moment.
»» Submitted by 108 at 12:04 PM on August 7
Blame should be placed on the governors who failed, for whatever reason, to put bickering legislators on notice that infrastructure spending is a critical role of government.
But then don't you have to trickle down the blame to the legislators and then on to the voters who are adverse to tax increases to fund said infrastructure? I don't see how this really accomplishes much. Wouldn't it be more effective to use this event as an example of why infrastructure must be adequately funded and maintained to persuade voters, legislators, and governers to make this a priority?
»» Submitted by »»» tara_r at 12:04 PM on August 7
Asking questions and methodically searching for answers is not the same as placing blame -- the former is constructive, the latter is not.
It probably will be that one or more of the causes people have claimed is in fact what caused it, but we're not at a point yet where we can accurately say so. They haven't even started to recreate what happened yet.
»» Submitted by Rez at 11:38 AM on August 7
But then don't you have to trickle down the blame to the legislators and then on to the voters who are adverse to tax increases to fund said infrastructure? I don't see how this really accomplishes much.
I didn't say sole blame. And while we expect legislators to pander to local projects and priorities, we expect governors to be leaders who see the big picture, and "sell it" to the voters. I feel like the only thing we've been sold the last few years is fingerpointing in the legislature, and Pawlenty's "boyish charm."
Wouldn't it be more effective to use this event as an example of why infrastructure must be adequately funded and maintained to persuade voters, legislators, and governers to make this a priority?
I indeed hope this is what happens.
»» Submitted by realist at 12:08 PM on August 7
Will the NTSB investigation be totally independent, and will it look beyond pure engineering and maintenance issues to funding and decision-making questions?
If so, then I suggest waiting until the report is done. If not, then both sides of the debate should demand just such an inquiry.
Anything else seems inappropriate.
»» Submitted by »»» teucer at 12:11 PM on August 7
But if we don't know why the bridge collapsed, debating anything else is really a waste of breath. What if the soil underneath one of the footings suddenly shifted? How could we have adequately funded unshifting soil? It's one of many possibilities, all of which are possible. EVERYTHING will ultimately debated, but if we jump into the debate too soon, it only lessens its effectiveness, putting the problem off for another day.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 12:19 PM on August 7
"This still might not be the correct response, but it is an understandable response to understandable hysteria at this moment."
i think it shows more how politically vulnerable he is. no gas tax, having molnau be lt. gov/transportation head to save money, etc. NONE of that would have fixed anything, but it sure looks bad in a vp campaign ad.
»» Submitted by nope at 12:21 PM on August 7
The bridge was inspected, found in poor repair. Suggestions to replace, repair and shore up the weakest points were ignored. The bridge then collapsed.
BUT GEE, I WONDER WHAT REALLY HAPPENED
»» Submitted by Don't be dumb at 12:12 PM on August 7
I say it's easy to point fingers when you're trying to distract attention off yourself.
The harder thing to do is step up and take some responsibility.
»» Submitted by hb at 12:08 PM on August 7
Shifting silt, deicing compounds, small earthquake, alien attack, metal eating slugs, a small boy with demonic mind control and a penchant for mischief...
Say, has anyone checked out what was really in that Sara Lee truck?
And a school bus full of kids? Why, everyone knows America has an obesity problem!
»» Submitted by Occam at 12:30 PM on August 7
Razor-sharp analysis, as always, Occam!
Actually, if you look at one of the photos, there's a early 90s Volvo 940 among the cars. Do you know how heavy those things are?!
Obviously, it was a liberal, latte-drinking hippie who made sure millions went to light rail, in their heavy, safe car. Dudes probably enjoyed the trip down, stoned out their gourd as they most likely were.
»» Submitted by Fygar at 12:40 PM on August 7
Actual blame will never find anything but a shifting target. Politicians are subject to term limits, government workers are subject to shrinking budgets, and those that said the bridge needs repair were, at the time, simply speculating. The fact is that we take calculated risks everyday. Just getting into our cars is a dangerous endeavor. The government calculates risks, too. Will this bridge fall down? Probably not. Is there a scenario at which time a bridge -- any bridge -- will fall? Yep. The ultimate legacy of this tragedy (and of those who died) will hopefully be that, if it could've been prevented, this will never, ever happen again.
»» Submitted by the buck stops where? at 12:39 PM on August 7
I blame the new Gopher Football Stadium giving the bridge a sense of entitlement to do whatever it wants!
»» Submitted by JC65 at 12:53 PM on August 7
Good day, all. I am writing from an undisclosed location. I am here to say that Tim told me today I am doing a heck of a job. And I am not resigning.
Even though those reports from 2 years ago told me the bridge was unsafe, I clearly chose to Minnesota's safety and comfort first. Potholes are very unsafe. Do you have any idea what prolonged pothole exposure does to a Lexus SUV? And I made sure the bridge was well lit. They said, Carol, the bridge is rusty. And I said, well, let's get some light on it! Lighting is important and safe. They said, We need steel plates and I told them, I have the fine bone china for holidays and I have my everyday Corell. But no steel.
Steel plates. Have you ever?
»» Submitted by Lt Gov Carol Molnau at 12:47 PM on August 7
108 and Mazmapaz and Booby_b
Please help my daughter like you usually do - lie through your teeth and blame liberals and the media. Remember, if you lie enough people will eventually believe you!!!!!
My daughter is a victim of a vast liberal conspiracy.
PS Say hi to Timmy!
»» Submitted by Carol Monau's Mom at 1:01 PM on August 7
Blame? Lets wait to get the facts to the exact cause for this particular bridge.
Even the Governor, however, feels we need more $$$ to repair these bridges/roads. I feel those that use the highways/bridges should be the ones to pay for them. I just hope we don't go the route of tolls. I hate going to Chicago.
And it does make sense to have a full time transportation secretary. If we are in need of such dramatic repairs, we should have an open-minded secretary who has experience in these things.
»» Submitted by Rachel J. at 1:06 PM on August 7
"My daughter is a victim of a vast liberal conspiracy."
"Vast"?
Enough with the personally insulting crap, okay?
I'm dieting.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 1:13 PM on August 7
Molnau is a full time department head.
When she was appointed, the belief was not that the DOT position was a meaningless figurehead position, but that the office of Lt Governor was.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:11 PM on August 7
Shifting Silt? Soil? Obviously you didn't spend much time devoted to geology or engineering studies. Footing for bridges are sunk directly in to the bedrock. In Minnesota at the heart of the craton with some of the oldest rocks in the world we don't build bridges on soil. If the bedrock shifted you would have already heard of some earthquake. Let's not throw out red herrings.
Also lets make a distinction between cause and blame.
Stressed Bridge, improper load, stress cracks - Cause
No funding, bad prioritization - Blame
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 1:11 PM on August 7
Bobby_b
Dieting?
Her post is childish, but does bring up the 'fox noise' honesty problem. The Republican Party is suffering from Lee Atwater-itis. If you say a lie long enough and hard enough people will buy it. Iraq is a perfect example.
Try acknowledging you guys can be wrong once in a while.
Commonsense indicates are bridges and roads are in need of repair. People who use them should pay for them. Attacking light rail is idiotic, because we need to get off oil.
Open to any other suggestions.
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 1:15 PM on August 7
The Republican Party is suffering from Lee Atwater-itis. If you say a lie long enough and hard enough people will buy it.
James Carville-itis might be a better term.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:26 PM on August 7
People who use them should pay for them.
They do.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:30 PM on August 7
Simpy - In Iowa, all we learn about geology is the Cardiff Giant. I just threw that as an example, if it's wrong it's wrong. But you get the point.
»» Submitted by kevin looged out at 1:28 PM on August 7
108 - more lies!
The Governor admits we need more money to fix the damn bridges and roads. Unless he turned liberal overnight, he acknowledges there is a financial problem. Has Pawlenty become a liberal overnight?
You continue to try to bullshit people.
Instead of obsessing about liberals (who I trust as much as you righties), try developing some commonsense solutions.
The problem with our government are all the left wing and right wing wackos........
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 1:44 PM on August 7
As long as we're finger pointing, I'd like to point out a few people that seem to be taking advantage of the situation a bit. My top three offenders so far:
Mark Stenglein (HenCo Commisioner): seems to have his fat head in the background of every news conference. Really dude, why are you standing back there?
Noah Kunin (the schmo that got Klobuchar's spokeswoman fired after leaking a campaign ad to her): helps out after the collapse for a few minutes then grabs his camera "so the pictures can be used for the investigation" and immediately posts them on flickr, then schedules media inteviews for the next five days.
Mike Pomeranz (Kare 11 anchor): his smarmines just seem to drip with "boy, this is going to make my career."
Ultimately, I don't know their motives, but anyone using this tragedy to advance themselves, well, sucks.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 1:48 PM on August 7
Anyone looking for a nice cinematic commentary on media opportunism should head over to the Parkway Theatre on Chicago and 48th to see the just-released Billy Wilder movie "Ace in the Hole".
»» Submitted by parkway at 1:54 PM on August 7
"If you say a lie long enough and hard enough people will buy it. Iraq is a perfect example."
Evergreen, you bring this to me as a representative of the party that claims Bush said Saddam posed imminent danger, that forgets that every politician for the last twenty years believed he had WMD, that lies about what the famous "16 words" actually were, that worships joe wilson but forgets that he lied about nearly everything for which you worship him, that misleads the public constantly about what NCLB is supposed to do, that hides from the public whatever it's trying to do about immigration, that kept claiming seriously that Bush was going to reinstate a draft, that today insists we're losing in Iraq, that campaigned to MN voters by saying they weren't going to be trying to raise taxes, . . .
"Open to any other suggestions."
I've got one.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 1:41 PM on August 7
I'd like to point my finger at whoever draped that Love Can Build a Bridge sign over the Stone Arch and ask, "what the fuck does that even mean?"
And why does there need to be an American flag there? Do we not know what country this is? Do we all need to come together as Americans and stand on the bridge and gawk like a bunch of assholes? What's going on here?
»» Submitted by »»» adam at 2:16 PM on August 7
Republicans: Do what it takes to get ahead. It's a dog-eat-dog world.
Democrats: We're in this together.
In a capitalist system, which viewpoint is going to win out? When Christ comes back, it ain't guys like Bush that he's going to take with him.
»» Submitted by woke up on the wrong side of the bed at 2:34 PM on August 7
Spaceman, you hit it right on the head: Ultimately, I don't know their motives, but anyone using this tragedy to advance themselves, well, sucks.
Alec Soth (photographer for Magnum, the most prestigious documentary photo agency in the world) lives here in the Cities and posted this about the collapse:
I was on a walk with my one year old when a passerby told me about the Mississippi River bridge collapse. First thought: call my wife. Second thought: should I go make pictures? TV helicopters were already hovering, news photographers were on the scene and hundreds of citizens were snapping away with cellphone cameras. What could I add? First thought: I could make myself look like a Serious Photographer. Second thought: I could make money for Magnum.
I didnt take pictures.
»» Submitted by »»» zenrhino at 2:47 PM on August 7
This just in: Fred Phelps of "god hates fags" fame coming to town to attend the funerals of the victims of the bridge tragedy.
»» Submitted by God loves bridges? at 2:56 PM on August 7
Bobby_b -
Huh?
What the hell are you talking about? Who care if everyone and their mother thought there were WMD's? You don't invade without a flippin plan to get out. Now we are stuck by a bonehead of a president who thinks this stupid surge is going to work. Work how? Shiite HATE Sunni's and Sunni's HATE Shiite. Bush didn't even know the damn difference before he invaded.
Reasons to invade:
1). We are invading because they have WMD's
2). Ah, no, that wasn't the only reason. We invaded to bring democracy
3). Huh? Shiites and Sunni's hate each other? We didn't know that.
4). Skip the democracy part. Now we are there to stabilize Iraq and make them a partner in the WAR AGAINST TERROR.
5). Oops! We lost 190,000 guns. Anyone see them?
What a fiasco.
Now lie to us some more and tell us the surge will work and everything will be beautiful....
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 2:57 PM on August 7
i didn't think they had wmd's.
»» Submitted by »»» adam at 3:06 PM on August 7
i didn't think they had wmd's.
Nor did I. Nor did many other people who were against the war from the get-go. Nor did most of the Democratic leadership, but they didn't have the balls to stand up and say so.
»» Submitted by »»» tara_r at 3:16 PM on August 7
"Open to any other suggestions."
I've got one.
I've got one too -- let's stay on topic, everybody.
Sucks, doesn't it?
Well it's too late now, and it doesn't have much to do with the topic of this thread.
Who brought up that war of ours, anyway?
»» Submitted by »»» adam at 3:19 PM on August 7
Sorry msparber....
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 3:21 PM on August 7
i totally wrote that before the moderator moderated.
»» Submitted by »»» adam at 3:22 PM on August 7
Back on topic...
Did anybody hear Newt Gingrich speak about the bridge collapse at the National Press Club today?
»» Submitted by »»» tara_r at 3:32 PM on August 7
"let's stay on topic, everybody."
Sorry.
("The Blame Game" - thought it was on topic. Blame is going to be thrown, not based on engineering, but on party affiliation.)
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 3:45 PM on August 7
Blah, my comments are getting nabbed by the spam filter. Lemme try to condense or restructure. The NTSB usually finds that a number of factors contributed to create a disaster, and I have little doubt that they'll find the same thing here.
The construction workers seemed to have a lot of equipment and material right on top of the spot that apparently first failed according to that security camera video (just north of the south pier).
Bridge inspectors seem to routinely miss certain spots because they can't reach them due to cramped spaces and the various vermin and bird guano they come across.
Molnau probably shouldn't have been in her position as Transportation Commissioner. She probably didn't directly influence anything, as much as I'd want to believe it being the political lefty that I am, but the pervasive focus on keeping costs down probably contributed, even in the area of safety where budgets are supposedly not an issue.
Coleman's mention in his Friday column about Molnau standing there smiling as the governor announced his veto of the transportation bill earlier this year is a fairly damning statement in my view. I've felt for a long time that the rabidly anti-tax, anti-government Republican party we have these days is only about two steps removed from being a gaggle of anarchists. As roads and bridges disintegrate, I imagine more people will come to have this opinion.
»» Submitted by »»» mulad at 4:19 PM on August 7
Blame should be placed on the governors who failed, for whatever reason, to put bickering legislators on notice that infrastructure spending is a critical role of government.
Except that the bickering legislatures have forwarded meaningful transportation bills with strong bi-partisan support to Pawlenty in both 2005 and 2007. There's a wonderful picture that I have of the press conference where he's vetoing the 2005 bill, with Molnau, Swiggum, and the rest smiling sh**-eating grins, because no-new-taxes is more important than infrastructure. If I were savvier, I'd post it up here.
Also, the gas tax, the primary funding source for our roads, has been decreasing in value since the day it was last raised in 1988. Income taxes and sales taxes maintain their value, because they are levied as a percentage against a number that is rising with inflation. Gas tax does not rise with inflation, and anybody watching construction costs knows that they have increased at a much higher rate than everything else.
»» Submitted by »»» MunsingW at 4:19 PM on August 7
Except that the bickering legislatures have forwarded meaningful transportation bills with strong bi-partisan support to Pawlenty in both 2005 and 2007. There's a wonderful picture that I have of the press conference where he's vetoing the 2005 bill, with Molnau, Swiggum, and the rest smiling sh**-eating grins, because no-new-taxes is more important than infrastructure. If I were savvier, I'd post it up here.
Pawlentys transportation bill (that wasnt passed either) provided substantial fUnding increases, but it was bonded. Bonding for infrastructure is a perfectly fine way to conduct governement spending, but it flies in the face of Democrats modus op of instituting taxes for taxes sake.
»» Submitted by 108 at 4:32 PM on August 7
First, the amount of money in Pawlenty's proposal didn't even scratch the surface. Grossly inadequate for the position that this state finds itself in.
Second, I'll agree in principal that some bonding is appropriate for long term construction costs. However, Pawlenty proposed to pay it back with the future transportation funds, meaning that he would have already spent the dollars that folks in ten years will need to solve their maintenance problems (most of which really would have been our problems that we still didn't have enough money to fix).
That's the ultimate in passing the buck.
»» Submitted by »»» MunsingW at 4:47 PM on August 7
"Pawlentys transportation bill (that wasnt passed either) provided substantial fUnding increases, but it was bonded. Bonding for infrastructure is a perfectly fine way to conduct governement spending, but it flies in the face of Democrats modus op of instituting taxes for taxes sake."
It's not a "taxes for taxes sake" position. It's a matter of how do we pay for government. And I'll take "tax and spend" Democrat over a credit card Republican.
So, both sides proposed increases in transportation spending. Only one side was willing to negotiate over the details.
The DFL dropped their initial proposal from 10 cents to 5 cents. In fact, the DFL made numerous concessions from their opening position to try and sway not only the governor, but GOP legislators.
Pawlenty never budged from his no taxes position.
Considering the DFL concessions, I have no doubt that if Pawlenty had said "give me some of my bonding, and I'll give you the nickel", they would have jumped. Hell, they probably would have jumped if he had offered to accept a 2 1/2 cent hike.
The problem with the bonding only, is that it was a massive increase in borrowing, with no increased revenue to pay for that bonding.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:47 PM on August 7
No, the ultimate in passing the buck was back when the administration wanted the contractor to foot the initial bills in paying for the MN-62/I-35W commons rebuild before the government could secure funding. That took some balls. But yes, bonding, especially in the way it seems to be done these days, is a good second-place finisher in that race.
»» Submitted by »»» mulad at 4:56 PM on August 7
What I find to be most frustrating, though, as a Democrat with some strong fiscal conservative streaks, is the pattern of deferred maintenance:
If you don't fix potholed and cracked pavement or paint and repair girders, the roads and bridges deteriorate faster and will need to be replaced sooner. So you're saving a few bucks in the short term, but throwing millions away in the long term.
Molnau has been nickel and diming MNDot basic maintenance to keep the whole pyramid scheme upright for a few more years. It's come tumbling down now.
»» Submitted by »»» MunsingW at 4:59 PM on August 7
So true MunsingW!
You can't nickle and dime MNDOT
»» Submitted by Dem-o-mite! at 5:36 PM on August 7
This kind of unfortunate shit's going to happen all around the country, but as far as funding goes, gimme a fucking break. No $ for "transportation infrastructure" (bridge repair)?! Are you kidding? Do you realize how many millions and millions of dollars are being wasted in Iraq each day?
I blame Carol Molnau and more specifically her daughter.
If her daughter looks anything like Carol, an obese tranny, then her frequent trips over the bridge surely weakened the structure.
Moreover, because the wives of most, if not all, Conservatives look like obese trannies thus causing most Conservatives to make frequent trips over the bridge seeking refuge at one of the many downtown titty bars, thereby further weakening the structure....well the writing is on the wall.
But you gotta tip your hat to Carol. Clearly she won't quit (eating) and that is what Conservative Leadership is all about:
1. Never take responsibility for anything.
2. Blame the Demoncrats.
3. Stuff your pie hole.
That is all.
folks...please allow your kids out in the sunlight and keep them off those video consoles with games that simulate War, or they could turn out like Raindog66
»» Submitted by one who knows at 5:49 PM on August 7
Thanks for your input Carol.
Now pass the Fritos and Bean Dip!
Raindog hath a blog!
I'm glued to the edge of my seat in anticipation. But that's another story entirely.
»» Submitted by »»» teucer at 5:56 PM on August 7
Why hasn't Governor Ventura received any fingers pointing his way? He took a lot of dedicated transportation funding away when he axed the license tab fees -- and didn't replace the funding in any way. That funding could have made a bit of a difference, no?
It's funny how short political memory can be. Of course, that's exactly what the pols are counting on.
»» Submitted by »»» mjm at 6:19 PM on August 7
I think that Ventura and Arne Carlson are both culpable in the situation, although they at least had the thoughtfulness to appoint MNDoT heads who cared about funding transportation.
»» Submitted by »»» MunsingW at 6:27 PM on August 7
Infrastructure is not glamorous, maintenance of that infrastructure is even less so. Neither side wants to waste effort in funding it until something bad happens.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 7:33 PM on August 7
I can't help it if I am a dog. I am inbred.
I can tell you I have nightmares! Mostly about Michael Vick, but sometimes about liberals who are going to force me to pay for things now instead of putting them on a credit card.
YYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
»» Submitted by Carol Molnau's Daughter at 8:17 PM on August 7
I am right on most issues, but on this I am with the Dem's.
Pay your fucking fair share and fix the fucking bridges. Only an idiot would be against that.
Gov Ventura was kick ass man! He wouldn't have put up with any crap from any Lt Gov.
»» Submitted by The Dude at 8:19 PM on August 7
Interesting website.....
Looks like Pawlentys ex-Chief of Staff is telling the Strib that Molnau needs to go the way of the passenger pigeon.
»» Submitted by Chuckman at 8:21 PM on August 7
I see 108 and Bobby_b are doing their best to defend da Gov.
Good night, the party's over.......
For the record Dude, Gov Ventura was an asshole
»» Submitted by Hopper at 8:23 PM on August 7
Hopper.....
Eat me......
»» Submitted by The Dude at 8:25 PM on August 7
I bet the Dude is Big G's big brother.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:59 PM on August 7
"Why hasn't Governor Ventura received any fingers pointing his way?"
'Cuz he's a big, mean-lookin' weirdo with tattoos. You go point your finger at him.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 11:27 PM on August 7
"Open to any other suggestions."
I've got one.
I've got one too -- let's stay on topic, everybody.
There goes max again, breakin' everybody's balls.
For the record, I don't know why the bridge fell. Seems like I'm one of the few willing to admit that.
»» Submitted by kevin is ready for bed at 11:32 PM on August 7
Thought this was interesting, coming from where it did:
.
"Despite historic highs in transportation spending, the political muscle of lawmakers, rather than dire need, has typically driven where much of the money goes. That has often meant construction of new, politically popular roads and transit projects rather than the mundane work of maintaining the worn-out ones.
Further, transportation and engineering experts said, lawmakers have financed a boom in rail construction that, while politically popular, has resulted in expensive transit systems that are not used by a vast majority of American commuters.
Representative James L. Oberstar, Democrat of Minnesota and the chairman of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, sent out a news release last month boasting about Minnesotas share of a recent transportation and housing appropriations bill.
Of the $12 million secured for the state, $10 million is slated for a new 40-mile commuter rail line to Minneapolis, called the Northstar. The remaining $2 million is divided among a new bike and walking path and a few other projects, including highway work and interchange reconstruction."
NYT, 8/7/07
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 11:45 PM on August 7
Drip, drip, drip:
I-35W inspectors flagged serious cracks, rusting
State bridge inspectors warned for nearly a decade before its collapse that the Interstate 35W bridge had "severe" and "extensive" corrosion of its beams and trusses, "widespread cracking" in spans and missing or broken bolts.
Not only was the superstructure in poor condition, but certain components were "beyond tolerable limits," and one of the bridge's piers had "tilted to the north," they reported.
By 2000, the inspectors wrote that "eventual replacement of the entire structure would be preferable" to redecking the bridge. They added: "If bridge replacement is significantly delayed, the bridge should be re-decked."
That recommendation was repeated in every report afterward, but it never happened.
1. If I had any confidence that Republicans had any belief in accountability (or shame), I'd predict Molnau would be gone by the end of the State Fair.
2. Jesse's going to be dragged into this before the end.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:33 AM on August 7
I'm not a Civil Engineer, but I've got to think that a having a pier 'tilt' is just about one of the worst things that could possibly happen to a bridge. These revalations don't make anyone who had access to them look good.
»» Submitted by JC65 at 1:23 AM on August 8
With every bit of tangible evidence confirming that Pawlenty & Molnau had to know about this potential tragedy BEFORE it happened (T-Paw's hideous plaid shirts read "g-u-i-l-t-y" btw) comes a chorus of:
"You don't respect the dead by pointing fingers..."
"Blah Blah Blah LIGHT RAIL SUCKS Blah Blah Blah..."
"Achoooooooooooit'stheliberalsfaultooooooooo!"
So typical.
Polenta is LUCKY he has that fat tranny Carol as a scapegoat in all of this. Nonetheless this horrible tragedy has pretty much destroyed his future political aspirations.
A silver lining in a dark cloud of despair.
So, when is the Lowry bridge going to be closed? A couple of months ago, the Strib had an article on Hennepin County's plans to request funds for replacing it. One of the concerns listed in the inspection report used to justify the request was a notation that there had been some "shifting" in one of the pier bearings.
I can't find the Strib article using their search, but here is some info.
One thing I do remember from the article was some opponent of the replacement scoffing about any danger related to the shifts. I'd be curious what he's thinking NOW.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:36 AM on August 8
I don't care which side was to blame for the bridge downfall! Both political parties in the state should take the guilt for this disaster!
»» Submitted by Big G at 2:17 AM on August 8
Strib says the I35E bridge over the Mississippi is in worse shape than the I35W bridge was, and that it nearly collapsed in 1975.
So the jagoff refenced in the header, who thinks allowing trucks on I35E would have prevented the I35W bridge collapse is 100% wrong, but that shouldn't surprise anyone.
»» Submitted by JC65 at 7:55 AM on August 8
Actually, the Strib says that the Lafayette bridge, which is part of Hwy 52 (not I-35E) has many of the same concerns as the 35W bridge.
»» Submitted by Elizabeth at 8:27 AM on August 8
Polenta is LUCKY he has that fat tranny Carol as a scapegoat in all of this. Nonetheless this horrible tragedy has pretty much destroyed his future political aspirations.
Do you approve or disapprove of the way Governor Tim Pawlenty has responded to the 35W bridge disaster?
Approve 75%
Disapprove 19%
Not Sure 6%
Do you approve or disapprove of the way President Bush has responded to the 35W bridge disaster?
Approve 65%
Disapprove 32%
Not Sure 3%
Do you think the state gas tax should? Or should not? Be increased to pay for improving the condition of our roads and bridges?
Should 38%
Should Not 57%
Not Sure 5%
Ha Ha. stupid liberals.
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/PollPrint.pdf
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:43 AM on August 8
I can't believe nobody has pointed the FINGER OF BLAME at Gravity. That sonofabitch has been getting away with this type of BS since way before the Newton Administration.
Not that this has anything to do with the bridge ;) , but I agree wholeheartedly with Lee Lynch.
»» Submitted by grote at 8:55 AM on August 8
Maz, that poll result is surprising, but it's one poll, without much context. If, in a month, several polls show the same thing, you'll earn your gloat.
Still doesn't change the fact we've been neglecting infrastructure and the only real way to fix it is find the revenue.
Also, the question asked was whether people approved of the way GP "responded" to the disaster. Not asked was whether they think he bears some responsibility. The reporting from the last several days does not bode well for Pawlenty and Molnau.
»» Submitted by blipster at 9:37 AM on August 8
Remember folks, it's too early to blame Governor Timmy and his side-kick, but it's not too early to cite polls sayinig he's a good guy!
Remember George Jr's approval ratings in Sept and Oct of 2001? Where are they now that some of the truth has gotten out?
»» Submitted by JC65 at 9:50 AM on August 8
I am not in the camp of people who would dismantle the safety net or privatize government functions en masse. I remain skeptical of calls for tax increases though, because the folks calling for them make tax arguments that are both disengenuous and oblivious to reality.
Re: Lee Lynch - the highest rate on the top income bracket in the 1990's was 8.5%. This was during the Carlson adminstration. It was subsequently lowered to 8% and 7.85% in the last 10 years.
If Lee Lynch and people of like minds only want an increase from 7.85 to about 8.5% on the top bracket, opponents will have some difficulty arguing against that I suppose. But theres no way a 'funding increase' like that is sufficient enough to address the long term effects of social service and education spending thats on its way to crowding out all other spending. We end up having the same argument again a couple years down the road, and theres a point where more taxation is both futile and immoral. Its never enough, theres always something thats going to be underfunded in someone's eyes. Its a losing battle to construct taxation policy based on the needs of the government. The scope of spending has to be defined.
»» Submitted by 108 at 9:51 AM on August 8
Upon further reflection, I'd like to state that as a liberal, I'm very happy to see such strong support for Governor Timmy's reaction to the bridge collapse thus far. Really what has he done so far? Declared an emegency (no brainer), hired an independent engineering firm to conduct an investigation (probably overkill since the NTSB will provide the definitive answer, but no harm done) and anounced that he'll sign a gas tax increase.
What better way to show the norquist/strom faction that they are completely wrong about taxes? The public is perfectly willing to accept higer tax rates provided goods and services are returned.
»» Submitted by JC65 at 10:11 AM on August 8
Yo Maz!
KSTP TV? Owned by the Hubbard family who contributed $20,000 to the Republican Party in '04. Cyndy Brukato - Republican spokesperson? We believe those polls? They had they worst record of all the local polls in '04. Next you will tell us to believe Gallup.
Secondly, the crapola hasn't hit the fan yet.
I do like Pawlenty's response so far, but only if he goes along with the tax increase on gas consumption. That means he is telling the right-wing mentally ill wackos to jump in the lake....
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 10:35 AM on August 8
Anybody hear Arne Carlson on KFAN last night? He had some pretty strident criticism for Pawlenty politicizing the Transportation Secretary role.
»» Submitted by realist at 10:49 AM on August 8
KSTP TV? Owned by the Hubbard family who contributed $20,000 to the Republican Party in '04. Cyndy Brukato - Republican spokesperson?
So you think KSTP would knowlingly run an inaccurate and slanted poll and risk the reputation of its news organization?
»» Submitted by The Rat at 10:51 AM on August 8
But theres no way a 'funding increase' like that is sufficient enough to address the long term effects of social service and education spending thats on its way to crowding out all other spending. We end up having the same argument again a couple years down the road, and theres a point where more taxation is both futile and immoral. Its never enough, theres always something thats going to be underfunded in someone's eyes. Its a losing battle to construct taxation policy based on the needs of the government. The scope of spending has to be defined.
Well put and 100 percent correct.
»» Submitted by Kevin logged out at 10:57 AM on August 8
So you think KSTP would knowlingly run an inaccurate and slanted poll and risk the reputation of its news organization?
'scuse me while I wipe the sarcasm off this thing.
»» Submitted by grote at 11:04 AM on August 8
I personally don't think they would.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:06 AM on August 8
....but there are people here (one is a new blogger, practicing a kind of non-blogging blog) who slog through fevered swamps of suspicion that wouldn't be above thinking a televsion would simply make up poll numbers to advance an agenday.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:07 AM on August 8
You are kidding, right?
Hubbard is a right wing nut job. Remember the ole Republican saying
"It's never a lie if you repeat it over and over"
I want to wait and see other polls. If the other polls back it up, then I apologize. But their track record is poor.
»» Submitted by Evergreen at 11:08 AM on August 8
That isnt an old Repblican saying.
»» Submitted by 108 at 11:11 AM on August 8
You are kidding, right?
No I'm not. And I notice you dodged the question.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:13 AM on August 8
The Rat's not a kidder.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:15 AM on August 8
You people are nuts. I watch a lot of local news in my business, and I see no more overt political bias in KSTP-TV's news coverage than in any other station, including Jason's. The political views of the owner are of no consequence here, although the anchor's recent past as a lobbyist and spokesperson for the Governor is a little unusual. They do an okay job, and Tom Hauser's "At Issue" is top notch -- although it should be restored to a full hour.
By all means, point out political bias when you can find clear examples of it. Broadcasting about a survey you dissagree with doesn't count. I have disagreed with KSTP-TV surveys before, but I don't believe it is a case of intentional bias.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 11:14 AM on August 8
I don't Stanley Hubbard gives a tinker's damn what polls his station produces or their outcome.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 11:32 AM on August 8
The poll was done by SurveyUSA, a national polling firm. It was comissioned by KSTP. There's no reason to suspect it was fixed in any way. The problem, if you want to call it that, was with the question: "Do you approve of the way [Pawlenty] RESPONDED to the bridge disaster?"
It's not too surprising, since Pawlenty didn't go on vacation, disparage the victims, or declare war on Iran, that people generally approve of his response. What remains to be see is how he fares when people have a better idea of just how neglectful the state has been of the bridge.
»» Submitted by blipster at 11:28 AM on August 8
Surveys/Polls reflect what people are thinking at the time of the survey and we know how attitudes change. It doesn't surprise me that the survey was favorable so close to the time of the collapse.
As blipster pointed out, neither Pawlenty nor Bush were offensive in their responses thus far. Plus the surveys/polls don't allow for "additional comments" it's typically: "Do you think Pawlenty has done a good job responding to bridge collapse?" Yes or No?
You don't get to add commentary like "Yes, I think he responded well, but he's also a horse's backside, but then again he does have lovely skin and hair."
»» Submitted by Cat at 11:50 AM on August 8
In 1985, during Mayor George Latimer's fifth and final term, acting on the reports of bridge inspectors, the City of St. Paul condemned, razed and by 1987 rebuilt the High Bridge. It undoubtedly caused great inconvenience and loss of income for many in St. Paul's Cherokee Heights neighborhood. No doubt many wanted Latimer's head on a pike. But he went ahead and did it anyway rather than hope the thing stayed up until he was safely out of office.
He subsequently ran for governor and lost. You wanna' play the blame game? Okay, first, get a mirror...
»» Submitted by hurler at 12:48 PM on August 8
I find it fascinating that in the days after the bridge collapse, a majority is still opposed to hiking the gasoline tax. At least according to one poll. I hope the next poll by someone else asks the question in an identical way, so we can compare results.
Even though I think both major parties share responsibility for putting infrastructure on the back shelf for far too long, I like this take on it:
www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/7/11325/24764
"In the last legislative session"..."the DFL, passed two bills to address the huge hole in infrastructure maintenance that has accumulated over the past years. First they passed a bill with a $.10 tax on gasoline with $8 billion for repairs. The Republican Governor vetoed it. So the DFL went back and passed a $4 billion package and a $.05 tax.
This time the governor not only vetoed it, but asked of the DFL at the press conference are you stupid? "
Pawlenty did not want to pay for infrastructure now, but sometime in the future (at the expense of future infrastructure maintenance) when he was no longer governor. So he then calls everyone who would rather not go deeper into debt and push our problem off on our kids, stupid.
That puts Pawlenty right up there as chief dumbass. Too scared to say no to the special interests who bought him his governorship and too self absorbed to put the interests of the people above his own chances of being re-elected.
But right alongside of him are plenty of other dumbasses, who are also too self absorbed to see beyond their next campaign.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 12:47 PM on August 8
I will defer to the person who provides a good citation, but I don't remember it that way. I recall Pawlenty's 'are you stupid' remark as a response to an income tax hike proposal brought forth by Larry Pogomiller.
There's a little bit of alternate history / mythology being created here.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:15 PM on August 8
Jason, the public has been told for years and years, at least since Saint Ronny, that Government is the problem, and that taxes are somehow immoral, and that any dollar paid in taxes was a dollar stolen at gunpoint by a totalitarian overlord.
None of that is true in and of itself. Taxes are a tool (just like the NRA says a gun is a tool) and there are good and bad ways to use taxes just like there are good and bad ways to use a gun.
However many people just don't get it, but then again many people can't find Canada on a map of Canada.
»» Submitted by JC65 at 1:16 PM on August 8
Theyre is a context for everything. When the Reagan adminsistration started, top marginal rates were in the 60% - 70% neighborhood. I would say they are immoral at that level. They we're lowered to 31%, and then raised back to 36% in the Reagan era.
You folks appear to argue from the false assumption that taxes are not paid now. They are.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:23 PM on August 8
Who claims that taxes aren't paid now? Sure they're paid... they're paid disporportionately by the middle and lower classes, and they don't meet the demands put on governments, but they're paid.
"you folks" seem to be forgetting the principle lesson learned by dick cheney during the reagan years... deficits don't matter to the electorate. Tax cuts for the rich and increased spending on the military translate into political gains for the right wing, but they also result in underfunded domestic policy and crumbling (and I _wish_ I was using that word figuratively) infrastructure.
Are you trying to argue that Sweden and Norway are fundementaly immoral because of their tax rates? I'd argue that it's much less moral to argue against taxation, thereby consigning the other members of society to abject poverty because of an underfunded social welfare system in order to protect your personal wealth. Heck, and I'm not even a socialist!
»» Submitted by JC65 at 1:37 PM on August 8
I think it's obvious who is to blame for this bridgess collapse. It's Jesse Ventura. Oh, and 9/11 was Clinton's fault too.
The first thoughts to pop into my head upon hearing of the collapse were, sadly: 1. 'Great, there are going to be a bunch of local 'reporters' trying to make a name for themselves covering the story,' and 2. 'Start the blame game.'
I just hate it when I'm right.
»» Submitted by QB_Browns at 1:12 PM on August 8
they're paid disporportionately by the middle and lower classes,
Thats not actually true, theyre paid disportionately by the wealthy.
deficits don't matter to the electorate
That is true to some extent
Are you trying to argue that Sweden and Norway are fundementaly immoral because of their tax rates? I'd argue that it's much less moral to argue against taxation, thereby consigning the other members of society to abject poverty because of an underfunded social welfare system in order to protect your personal wealth.
In general, I argue confiscatory taxation policies are immoral and they don't lend themselves to a vigorous entreprenuerial culture. Most of my Swedish relatives are at least partly on the dole over there, its bizarro world, theyre in their prime earning years doing not much.
I'd argue that it's much less moral to argue against taxation...
I acknowledge the need for taxes
underfunded social welfare system
I don't buy this argument, we have an intricate social safety net, which is good.
»» Submitted by 108 at 1:58 PM on August 8
If this was truly your first thought, then I feel sorry for you:
'Great, there are going to be a bunch of local 'reporters' trying to make a name for themselves covering the story,'
Local reporters do plenty of stupid things (myself included), but I haven't seen any of them trying to make a name for themselves covering this story. My first thought as I began 8 hours straight of reporting live from the scene was: Good God, I hope there aren't 100 people dead in the river.
Just found this tasty nugget of tax cutting delight from our last Gubenatorial election.
»» Submitted by grote at 2:17 PM on August 8
I still don't understand how there aren't 100 dead people in the river. A very heavy bridge fell a very long way down into very dangerous water. I guess it's a tragedy and a miracle at the same time.
»» Submitted by Kevin logged out at 2:20 PM on August 8
Apparently, the energy of the bridge crushing itself underneath the people who were on it acted as a sot of cushion for the fall. Counter intuitively, it seems if you're going to fall off a huge bridge into a river, it's best to have the bridge falling underneath you.
"Jason, the public has been told for years and years, at least since Saint Ronny, that Government is the problem, and that taxes are somehow immoral, and that any dollar paid in taxes was a dollar stolen at gunpoint by a totalitarian overlord."
Umm, really? I've not heard that. What I've heard is that tax money gets wasted while real needs go unmet.
What I've heard is that taxes are quite likely going to be wasted on plugged-in-peoples' pet projects, trendy new movements and initiatives, and buttressing the voter base of the spendors, while the true needs of the people from our government will largely go unmet due to lack of sex appeal. It's a great campaign-brochure shot when you open your new paved bike trail or LTR or freeway re-route, but pictures of bridge inspectors just don't make people sit up and say "there's a guy who can make those other suckers in Florida and New York and Alaska pitch in and buy us shit!"
I'd be happy to pay increased tax rates if I thought there was a chance they'd be applied to things like infrastructure, policing, military . . . stuff that needs funding, but doesn't earn a politician a big color pic in the Strib's community section when it's announced.
Remember the 2005 federal transportation bill? Mn got a 46% boost that year, from the evil BushCo (and more each following year) - and there were 147 earmarks set into that bill, taking the bucks away from the DOT's authority, on things like this:
Non-motorized Transportation Pilot Program in Minneapolis-St. Paul ($25 million)
Union Depot Multimodal Transit Facility ($50 million)
University of Minnesota ($16 million)
Recreational visitor center in Virginia, MN ($1.3 million)
Bike trail construction along TH 11 ($540,000)
Construct bicycle and pedestrian trails in Cuyuna Recreation Area ($700,000)
Heritage Center at the Grand Portage National Monument ($1.4 million)
Program for Replacement and upgrade of deficient township signs, statewide ($3 million)
Point is, we could tax at a 95% rate, and we'd not likely put the money into infrastructure. But teachers would make $150k, class size would be limited to five, every kid in Mpls would get their own ambulance, and college would be free.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 2:02 PM on August 8
I think the location helped a lot. The collapse location was so close to HCMC, the hospitals at the U, and with lots of first responders, both professional and laypeople, around.
If this had happened 50 or 100 miles outside an urban area, I think the fatalities would have been higher.
It also helped that it happened in August versus February.
»» Submitted by Elizabeth at 2:29 PM on August 8
"Counter intuitively, it seems if you're going to fall off a huge bridge into a river, it's best to have the bridge falling underneath you."
Yeah, basic physics. The bridge, a huge mass, starts moving slowly, and then hits a soft bottom and is, again, so massive that it isn't stopped in any quick, jarring way, it just slowly squishes the bottom mud down and settles.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 2:29 PM on August 8
"Thats not actually true, theyre paid disportionately by the wealthy."
And that is not true. The wealthy pay proportionately according to the tax rates. However, few if any of the top 20% actually pay their percentage, and when loopholes and shelters are factored in, they pay disproportionately less.
Also, most US corporations paid no income taxes during the boom years of the 90's. I wish I could say the same.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 2:21 PM on August 8
The wealthy pay the majority of total tax reciepts. You're confusing that with an argument about proportionalty of the rates and progressivity of the rates.
»» Submitted by 108 at 2:41 PM on August 8
Also, most US corporations paid no income taxes during the boom years of the 90's. I wish I could say the same.
Total myth.
»» Submitted by 108 at 2:44 PM on August 8
Since 108 said it I have to believe it over all other sources of information.
I stand corrected.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 3:05 PM on August 8
Well, enlighten us before you start quoting Michael Moore or Mother Jones. Give me a context. How many of those corps were S corps (on which there are no profits and taxation is passed through to the shareholder) and how many are C corps?
No BS. Context please...
»» Submitted by 108 at 3:07 PM on August 8
Myth my ass.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 3:08 PM on August 8
Your taking a kernal of truth to make a statement that misrepresents the way the tax code works and who benfits. There's an explanation, a reasonable one. Most of these are fairly small business by the way.
Like I said: S corps, C corps
»» Submitted by 108 at 3:18 PM on August 8
"Also, most US corporations paid no income taxes during the boom years of the 90's. I wish I could say the same."
Not true. IRS has good stats on this at their site.
Not only that, the profit of most big (public) US corporations reflects into the share price - i.e., the total that the company is worth after a good year is higher, so each share reflects that, and that rise gets captured for each owner that sells a share at the capital gains rate. So, even if what you said above was true, all profit has been taxed once anyway. Problem is, corporate profit thus ends up being taxed twice.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 3:32 PM on August 8
jderusha-
I feel remorse for having thought that, admittedly. Of the few reporters I know personally, most are ultimately trying to position themselves to move up in the industry one way or another. Covering a national story for the local station is just one way to do it, and probably the easiest way for that matter. I just refuse to pretend that those reporting this story don't know that. I'm not lumping all reporters into this either, for it would be idiotic to do so. Some, not all.
Sorry for the 'offtopicness' of this post. Peace.
»» Submitted by QB_Browns at 3:13 PM on August 8
Which corporations do 108 and Bobby_b work for?
What a bunch of BS ers!
Northwest Airlines just paid their 'CEO' $29 million. For what? So their planes can be cancelled.
Corporations rig the whole tax system to their advantages. And small businesses? Most are accountants and lawyers. Not your local ma and pa shop....
»» Submitted by Jackie at 5:02 PM on August 8
The problem with taxes and government is that we have lost control over what government should be. Right now its a reflection of lefties and righties, special interests and an indifferent public. We got the government we deserve.
Government and taxes should be used to:
1). Enforce the US Constitution
2). Protect our borders
3). Provide police protection
4). Maintain our roads and bridges
5). Protect people from pollution (ie mercury poisoning)
6). Provide education/training to make us competitive in the world
Right now government is subsidizing oil companies, invading countries for now reason, milking the American taxpayer to enrich corporations, taking away our gun rights, allowing corporation to dump mercury in the Great Lakes, telling who can get married and who can't....
Let's get back to basics! If we cut out all the 'morality' and corporate subsidy crap, we could cut our taxes in half.
»» Submitted by Manic Middler at 5:05 PM on August 8
Which corporations do 108 and Bobby_b work for?
What a bunch of BS ers!
Northwest Airlines just paid their 'CEO' $29 million. For what? So their planes can be cancelled.
Corporations rig the whole tax system to their advantages. And small businesses? Most are accountants and lawyers. Not your local ma and pa shop....
Another no nothing pinko weighs in.
»» Submitted by 108 at 6:20 PM on August 8
O hideous irony.
»» Submitted by »»» teucer at 6:23 PM on August 8
I have read this blog for some time. It is interesting how polarized our society has become. I personally am sick of taxes, sick of George bush and sick of whining liberals who want everyone to be "safe" and happy. It's the middle class getting screwed. Not the rich and not the poor they get theirs I don't. I just pay. I pay for bridges that fall down. I pay for people coming to this state that have no intention of contributing. I pay for stadiums that I have no interest in. I pay for programs for every little thing that individuals need to be accountable for. I grew up in Minnesota and have seen the Republicans go from a limited government stance to one of big government for Jesus. I have seen the Democrats go from a FARM LABOR party to lets just whine and by votes from those who don't want to work. The bridge fell down. Bad things happen and will continue to happen. Taxes will not prevent bad things from happening. Why is it that every time something happens we need a tax. How about putting money were it should be spent. How about prioritizing what is important from what is not important before we take more money form me (yes I am selfish because I earn it)
»» Submitted by swandog at 5:51 PM on August 8
I see the irony. I am guilty.
»» Submitted by 108 at 6:36 PM on August 8
Bridge design was perhaps flawed, and should not have had added weight of construction vehicles
...and was thus not necessarily caused by underfunded infrastructure...
»» Submitted by 108 at 12:27 AM on August 8
"O hideous irony."
O sudden splurt of coffee from mouth . . ."
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:33 AM on August 8
"Which corporations do 108 and Bobby_b work for?"
"Work"? Sucking the blood from badly-paid, abused, undocumented, uninsured single mom employees isn't WORK, son! I'd do this for fun even if I wasn't making three hundred frazillion bux a year!
"Northwest Airlines just paid their 'CEO' $29 million. For what? So their planes can be cancelled."
Well, you can't really cancel a plane. You can lose planes - in bankruptcy, I mean - and I would have bet they were going to - lose them, I mean - (and, in fact, I DID bet, damn), but they managed to offer this Steenland guy - a fairly rich guy with plenty of great job offers with companies that WEREN'T about to go BK - enough to tempt him in, and, bigawd, he knew enough about the law (ex-BigDCFirm partner), and about finance and negotiations and BK and company structure and whatnot to pull it off. So, that's what the $$ were for.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 12:36 AM on August 8
"Another no nothing pinko weighs in.
»» Submitted by 108 at 5:20 PM on August 8"
Wow, your arguments MUST be right then.
Hello boys and girls, and welcome to my neighborhood. Won't you be my neighbor? Today we are going to learn about Commie Pinko Fags. Can you say Commie Pinko Fags? I knew you could.
Dipshit.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 8:37 AM on August 9
Let the record show that yoder made the connection between pinkos and their sexual orientation, not 108.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 9:21 AM on August 9
From today's City Pages Blotter...
"Nope."
Jeremy Hernandez, who kicked open the school bus door and helped the children inside to safety following the I-35W bridge collapse, when asked by a Bush Administration staff member to appear in a photo opportunity
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! BUURRRNNN!
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 10:22 AM on August 10
That kid comes across to me as remarkably humble and unassuming, even though he helped save the lives of dozens of his kids. Has there been any news if he took Dunwoody up on its offer of free tuition? It wouldn't surprise me if he turned that down as well.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 10:37 AM on August 10
carol molnau can go to hell, if we're going to build a new bridge then why don't we just put damn light tracks on it. but no she wants to waste another 200 million dollars of our tax money on building a seperate bridge or tunnel. she needs to get her assed fired after this happened on her watch.
»» Submitted by Jeffrey RJ at 5:22 PM on August 13
Sometimes, for no particular reason, I just feel more optimistic about conservatives' chances in the next state election.
»» Submitted by »»» bobby_b at 8:20 PM on August 13
»»» = registered user. click on it to see the user's profile.
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