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Greenway assault
On Thursday, August 16, 2007, at 10:45 p.m., a bicyclist on the Greenway was assaulted at the base of the 13th Ave entrance ramp by a group of 8 to10 teenagers. The Midtown Greenway Coalition has put up a comprehensive response to the assault.
Reader Comments
Yikes -- I got beat up by a gang of teenagers one block over on 14th Avenue while I was on foot a few months ago. I carry a bottle of mace now.
Still, I hope this won't feed any kind of widespread perception that the Greenway is unsafe. I get off at the 13th Avenue exit twice a day every day, and I've always been fine. I'm glad the Greenway Coalition is taking such a comprehensive response. The Greenway is one of the absolute best public resources in the city, and one of my favorite reasons for living here.
My son was almost a victim of a similar attack about two months ago. Fortunately, he biked really fast and escaped. The gang was throwing broken beer bottles to try to get him off his bike. It also happened about 10:00 p.m. on a weekday night. He now bikes on the surface streets, he says they are empty, and he's also moving to Como, so he won't be near the Greenway anymore.
My husband and I were biking down 10th Ave. (so same relative area) a few weeks ago around 9:30 pm and had a group of kids throw rocks at us....it was really scary.
Oh man. So disappointing to hear about. I keep hear more and more mugging stories through the grapevine and a good friend of mine was jumped and badly injured in June on 28th Street and Grand. The police were not very helpful to my friend and told my friend there would be no investigation even though there were 4 witnesses. The police said it was probably drug-money related.
I know the police are bogged down and I do not know what goes into a crime worthy of investigation, but it was very disheartening to hear. I am glad the Greenway Coaliton is informing people.
Could a community neighborhood watch improvement be helpful? For example, having volunteers in group of 3 or 4 just walk/bike around the neighborhood or greenway together to be a presence.
It's stories like this that make me reconsider conceal and carry.
These kids should just be shot on sight and then their parents.
Let's end this shit once and for all.
Why do we value human life so much? It hasn't always been that way.
how well lit is the greenway at night? seems like an area i'd avoid after dark, what with all the underpasses and some of the neighborhoods it traverses.
simpleton, i know you are being sarcastic, but it would have been really entertaining to see the looks on those kids faces, should a potential victim present a pistol to them. Not actually using it, of course.
Or maybe they try to assault a super kung fu expert, who just destroys them all in 4 seconds.
We didn't do this stuff when we were kids, partly 'cause we knew we could potentially get our asses handed to us, and partly because were simply not as disrespectful as kids today.
Think how angry you would be as this was happening to you.
Max, come on. Show a little love.
That particular portion of the Greenway is decently lit, I think. The worst/darkest is the area where the path to Calhoun and Isles splits off. Lack of light and lots of overhanging trees.
It's fairly well-lit, and there's blue emergency boxes every so often. I ride it at night pretty frequently through that stretch, and though it probably wouldn't hurt to have a few more lights under that overpass near the Midtown Exchange, I've never felt like there was any stretches that went too long with no illumination.
It really just helps to have good lights on your bike so you can see ahead, and try to group up with any other riders going your way.
I sort of get a kick out of the Coalition's point in their memo calling potential mob-attackers "at-risk kids.". Seems to me it's the bikers who are "at risk."
Target at-risk young people with our Go bicycling program in 2008 through alliances with youth-serving agencies
I am sure the at risk kids would love to go biking. Sounds like a great program. How about a program that includes police officers patrolling and locking them up.
All along, I was apprehensive about the safety aspects of the trail. But, happily, the reality has contradicted that: it's been overwhelmingly positive.
A guy I know from way back was one of those who was, and continues to be, instrumental in the trail's development; I've written to him to congratulate him on the trail's success, and on his excellent foresight.
This incident will probably turn out to be an unfortunate blip in the trail's otherwise terrific record.
Stuff like this has happened infrequntly even in the city's safest spots, such as my neighborhood, Linden Hills. In the 1980s, there was a gang-initiation incident near Lake Calhoun's Thomas Beach, in which someone out for a walk got attacked by a carfull of young men, in a "wilding" incident. Two years ago, in the fall, a fellow got jumped and stomped-on near the Lake Harriet bandstand, just a couple of blocks from his home. He's made a full recovery, but he was out of work for quite a while, because of a broken thigh bone.
The perpetrators of such attacks always wait until after dark, so a simple rule-of-thumb is to use suitable discretion when being out, especially by one's self, during the evening or overnight hours.
And, to be fair, it's worth pointing out that after dark, bicyclists can encounter comparable dangerous harassment on any city streets as well. In college I used to bike a lot late at night, to and from the Uptown area, and I had my share of beer cans and bottles thrown at me, by idiotic drunks.
do bike cops patrol this strecth of the greenway?
You know what? I wasn't being sacastic. I wish this kids dead.
We need capital punishment but for every violent crime.
If possible ride in groups after dark, especially after 10:00 p.m.
Why? Because if you're alone after 10 you should have no expectation of public safety?
If you have a cell phone, keep it handy and call if you see anything suspicious.
"Hello? Yea -there are 8-10 black kids running after me. What? That's not a politically-correct attitude? Okay bye bye . . ."
Consider bringing along mace that velcros onto your handlebars.
Don't do it, merely consider it. It may temporarily bother the first 2 or 3 that are attacking you.
If you notice a group of teenagers up ahead and the situation doesn't feel right to you, turn around and exit the Greenway and find another route to your destination.
That's right; bail out. The Greenway belongs to thugs and criminals and it should be left to them at the first sign of a threat.
If you follow some of these precautions you're likely to be fine.
If you believe these procedures, you're likely to be just the passive sheep that makes you a target for the human trash that roams the city.
The Coalition is exploring a number of responses to this incident:
Learn from the police what else is happening in the Greenway;
Email Coalition members to inform them of the assault
Put info about the attack on our web site;
Include blurb in the Coalition's Sept e-news
Exploring! Wow - don't commit too much to this problem!
Target at-risk young people with our Go bicycling program in 2008 through alliances with youth-serving agencies.
Are you shitting me? You're going to put the Shotgun Crips out of business by giving them bicycles? Can ther be any wonder why Minneapolis is the way that it is?
before you disparage the program, just remember that Greg Lemond was a Shotgun Crip before the guv'ment gave him a bike
do bike cops patrol this strecth of the greenway?
i've seen bike cops a couple times, and police cars patrol this stretch frequently.
I think the Mormon twins, with their crisp white shirts, ties, and matching bikes and helmets, should patrol the Greenway. That'll keep those damn kids away.
I bet the story of a retaliation by two Morman Pilgrims with advanced martial arts training would resonate though youth-at-risk community and they'd abandon The Greenway for good.
"The perpetrators of such attacks always wait until after dark, so a simple rule-of-thumb is to use suitable discretion when being out . . ."
I do understand the practical realities that make this statement a reasonable one, but it drives me crazy that we find ourselves in the position of having to accept this as we would any natural environmental condition. "It may rain, so bring a raincoat, and there may be muggers, so be prepared to abandon our community commons." Argh.
Our suburban police gave us similar attitude, expressed in their advice to us that we simply not allow our smaller kids to use certain city parks after 7pm or so on hot summer nights. The "affordable housing" complexes were vaguely mentioned as being "a problem", but otherwise, the police wanted us to simply accept this and not go into any deeper discussion about who was causing problems, what gangs were where, etc.
So, we (a group of parents) decided that, no, these were our parks, we paid for them, we're not the ones hanging out in the evenings and nights in large groups breaking stuff and harrassing and beating and robbing kids, and so, for a change, screw the people who do that shit, instead of accepting our own screwing. We took to spending lots more evenings - by assignment, even - wandering those specific city parks and trails in groups of four or six. We encountered a pile of kids (kids? - mostly 16-18, about 1/4 between 19 and 25) who were quite insulted that we we trying to interfere with their territories, and who were going to show us the door and maintain their own dominance.
They're gone now. We're still here. Plus, we all got some good exercise, met a pile of nice people, and figured out where the power in a community really resides. It only belongs to the scum if you let it go.
Cities won't be safe again until people return to a norm of sitting on their outside porches at night watching everything, and until people go in groups TO the bad spots at night, and not away from them.
Look, I ride that Greenway every day right that area, I have never felt unsafe, and I will continue to ride it. Using the Greenway is the best way to keep it safe.
Last Thursday just after dark, I was biking eastbound on the Greenway when someone stopped me just before the Midtown Exchange and cautioned me not to proceed any further, explaining that he had been jumped by a group of black teenagers.
Foolishly, I eventually doubted his story -- perhaps because another passerby looked on with indignation when asked if "the black kids were still on the trail" -- and thus continued on my way when another eastward biker came by.
I now have no doubt about his story, but I still don't understand why he wouldn't call the police.
Uh-oh, Tate, you said "black." *GASP*
Better put on your Internet armor if you decide to say that word around here.
Don't Snitch Baby!
The most stupid thing I have ever heard.
They shot your cousin? Don't Snitch.
They mugged your mom? Don't Snitch.
Them cops are out to get us, don't ever help them.
How completely stupid are these people?
Who cares? Once that beautiful new suspension bridge opens up, getting your ass beat will be so worth it!
Bobby, good point. It's all about strengthening communities. As far as the greenway goes, yeah, the more people that ride at night, the safer it will be. Of course, convincing people to take that first step is the hardest part.
tangentially, i think the problem too is not just about creating safe spaces. it goes deeper than that. it's about the rising violence and crime in this city. we need to start looking at what is causing this. i would argue that our current political situation, with less and less opportunities for poor people to make ends meet, with failing schools, with a lack of affordable housing, all contribute to the rise of crime. We need to fix these problems, from where they start, and not just put bandaids on them.
she-she, don't forget lack of parents, lack of parents who have a freaking clue, destructive cultural norms, and of course 50 cent.
"destructive cultural norms"
you mean like economic injustice, lack of social programs and bigotry?
yep. those definitely contribute.
50 cent? no, i don't think he has anything to do with anything in this conversation
Pit bulls attack because they have shitty owners who don't socialize them properly. Kids beat up strangers because they were stuck with shitty parents who haven't socialized them properly. But for some reason we can blame the dog owners, but not the parents. Whatevs.
"with less and less opportunities for poor people to make ends meet, with failing schools, with a lack of affordable housing, all contribute to the rise of crime."
While I understand that addressing the question of "why do they do that?" is a part of any livability effort, I have to take issue with these. Unemployment is way down and job listings are up, the schools aren't failing so much as some kids are being conditioned by their peers and elders to assert personal power through the (supremely self-defeating) act of scoffing at the education offered, and the availability of "affordable housing", while nice, affects crime . . . how?
I think Bobby_B is right that gangs are the result of cultural influences within the community at this point more than a result of a lack of government support/aid. And since individuals that don't belong to said communities have very little power to change the culture within them, I'm not sure what else we can do but try to combat the crime via neighborhood watches and efforts such as the one Bobby described in his own neighborhood. Until there is no longer a "thug culture", these types of events will be a reality and that culture has to be dismantled from within.
Education is indeed failing, and I believe this is due largely to the outcome based system that has been put in place. Everything is about preparing for tests, and no effort is being put into important things like character, culture, arts, etc. After school programs are being cut, teachers are laid off. it's a mess. Other aspects of society are a mess too, but the schools are what I see firsthand and I am continually horrified by it.
I don't disagree that parents are an extremely important element, but when both parents have to work two jobs, and there is no money for daycare, much less health care, I'd say these are issues that are worth addressing from a societal standpoint, not just an individual one.
"Education is indeed failing, and I believe this is due largely to the outcome based system that has been put in place."
The primary goal and value of education, for an underperforming, unable-to-support-itself community, is to teach the members the skills needed to support itself. In order to know whether we're picking means and methods of teaching that accomplish such goals, we have to test the students. If we don't test, we have no idea if we're doing things effectively, or if we should change. Question the design of the tests, maybe, but not the need to test.
We're speaking here about how education makes a future more livable, which primarily has to do with the kinds of things schools can do to teach kids the skills that make them more valuable to employers. If a community is suffering from huge unemployment, I'd rather make sure they're learning math, writing and reading, homework scheduling and completion, and the like. Once those basic educational goals are met, we can worry about the schools providing character, culture, and arts to the kids.
She-she, I just wonder how much responsibility we can attribute to the government and school systems for the criminal behavior of kids. If both parents are working and don't have time to instill values into their children, maybe one of them should be staying home with the kids so they don't turn into thugs. How much culpability can we keep excusing parents from because they are too busy to parent their own children?
If you see that your kids are falling in with the wrong crowd and engaging in criminal activity, it's your responsibility to straighten the kid out, not the school's.
This is not to say that I don't agree with you that it is a travesty that teachers are being laid off, after school programs are being cut, etc. I do agree that this is a bad turn of events, but I don't think it is the major factor contributing to juvenile delinquency.
Education is indeed failing, and I believe this is due largely to the outcome based system
I think it has to do with a lack of parental involvement in a kid's education.
You can get an education anywhere. But a kid needs a desire to learn. That's not accomplished with affordable housing or higher salaries or anything like that.
I don't disagree that parents are an extremely important element
They are the First, Second and Third element.
The Rat said what I was trying to say using much fewer words. I tend to ramble.
I like to think better funding for schools would solve the problem, but whenever I visit our wonderful new library, every "at-risk" kid I see is on a computer, sitting next to his mom, and both are watching hip-hop videos.
Look at how much is being spent per pupil per year, over the past ten years. Even taking into account the mandated inclusionary efforts that have laid the price tag for trying to fit square kids into round districts on local districts, I have a hard time thinking that we've simply starved the system into poor performance.
"Question the design of the tests, maybe, but not the need to test."
Yes. I think the kinds of testing they are doing are not adequately assessing their education. yes, obviously kids need to learn math and reading. but they need to be simultaneously educated as whole people (which includes that other stuff i was talking about like character, and i would add decency and respect- which in my opinion can be "got at" through the arts, and through after school programming which encourages kids to engage in safe activities that inspire them under the supervision of adults)
Tara, how can a parent stay home if doing so means the rent doesn't get paid? It's a paradox: You say they should stay home to keep their kids off the streets, but then they risk having their whole family evicted because they can't make ends meet. These are absolutely societal issues.
"I like to think better funding for schools would solve the problem, but whenever I visit our wonderful new library, every "at-risk" kid I see is on a computer, sitting next to his mom, and both are watching hip-hop videos."
What's wrong with that? Seems like a perfectly wholesome activity to me.
Tara, how can a parent stay home if doing so means the rent doesn't get paid? It's a paradox: You say they should stay home to keep their kids off the streets, but then they risk having their whole family evicted because they can't make ends meet. These are absolutely societal issues.
To be completely honest, I don't think that a couple who can't afford to have one of the parents stay home enough to adequately engage in their children's lives have any business having children. And I don't think it's the school's responsibilty to parent the children in the absence of engaged parents. That's too much pressure for that kind of institution. And even if the school aimed to do this, I don't think it has any chance in succeeding when there isn't enough parental involvement or responsibility.
Oh.
My God.
The heavens part and the angels sing. The planets align and hell declares a snow day.
Bx falls to Tara's feet in worship.
Finally.
fair enough. but a person doesn't always know that they're going to be desperately poor for the rest of their lives. i imagine many people hope that their life situation will get better, and decide to have kids with the crazy notion that they might indeed at some point be able to stay at home with the child (or afford daycare). It's an annoying reality that we humans are most fertile at a time in our lives when we are not necessarily economically stable.
The perpetrators of such attacks always wait until after dark, so a simple rule-of-thumb is to use suitable discretion when being out, especially by one's self, during the evening or overnight hours<
No they do not always wait until after dark. I lived and have moved from the Standish neighborhood. The final straw was 2 individuals that were robbing people coming home going from there garage to there house after work. The finally robbed a Realtor in front of my house. At that point I figured hey this is not good for my property values, cashed out and moved. I lived there for 8 years and finally had enough and left. We can look at the causes of crime and throw money at the problem but it does no good. Bobby is right he took back his park and I commend him for it. However, at what point do you say I'm done, I do not have time for this and I am going to move. Furthermore, if you have kids at what point do you say I am not subjecting them to the problems of the city and we are moving. It is not the tax payers who pay for the parks and the greenway that are the problem it is the "social clubs" causing the problem. Blaming society for there problems is ridiculous. They are accountable that is what needs to be taught not if you have an excuse i.e. social injustice ect you get to do criminal acts and we will provide a program to solve it. What about the kid that is trying and is terrorized by the social clubs of MPLS who looks out for him or her.
She-she, why is breeding, period, of such paramount importance, anyway?
You don't have to "have kids" when you're "fertile."
You can "not have kids" period, or you can "have kids" by adoption at a point in your life when you can afford to spend the time and money they need, regardless of "fertility."
And people who choose to capitalize on their immediate "fertility" rather than on other things that ensure a secure future (like school, career, financial stability) are the ones who mortgage their children's futures by doing so.
People who think "oh, I better propagate/breed/reproduce my AMAZING, SPECIAL, RARE GENES now, before all my eggs and sperm dry up, even though I never graduated and make $14,000 a year working 70 hours a week and rent a shithole or live with my parents!" are the ones cheating their children in the name of their own indulgence.
People who WAIT a fucking minute and THINK about it truly deserve respect these days. The ones who adopt deserve it even more.
had to END THE ITALICS!
but it didn't work....
i imagine many people hope that their life situation will get better, and decide to have kids
I think, too (most?) often, there's not a decision process involved. They had sex and got pregnent.
What do you think goes on, on the weekends?
Incidentally, this thread got Erica fired up at Metblogging.
Good lord. People, honestly, if you have questions, feel free to email me, but casting unverified aspersions on your blog has got to be as great a breach of courtesy as the one you are accusing me of. Also, the "Rake forums"?
Good lord. People, honestly, if you have questions, feel free to email me, but casting unverified aspersions on your blog has got to be as great a breach of courtesy as the one you are accusing me of. Also, the "Rake forums"?
Doesn't everything on the Internet come from somewhere else? Or, to harken back to many a lit course in my college career: is anything truly original?
In all (puzzled) seriousness, I don't see how this conversation topic was "blatantly taken" from Metroblogging. The only thing that is the same is the link; the wording of the posts are completely different. Maybe Erica can explain more clearly why she feels that way, because I don't understand.
I forgot Metroblogging still existed. Judging by the amount of comments the entries over there receive, I'm not the only one.
To be completely honest, I don't think that a couple who can't afford to have one of the parents stay home enough to adequately engage in their children's lives have any business having children.
Here's what my sex ed speech will consist of to my future seedlings: "Condoms are cheap. Formula, diapers, and daycare are not. Keep that in mind when rubbing your naughty bits together..."
As a Greenway resident, I feel obliged to chime in.
The Greenway is a remarkably safe passage thanks in large part to the work of folks like Don Greely and others who worked on the safety aspect of the trail years ago, in it's initial phases. I continue to see men and women of all ages and abilities, alone and in groups, biking, blading and running use the trail during and beyond the daylight hours. One violent incident does not in anyway make it unsafe.
That being said, the 13th avenue ramp is a poorly-implemented entrance/exit. If you're biking down it you have to come to almost a complete stop in order to go west, which opens you up to this kind of assault. If you're going east on the trail, you have to do the same to turn onto the ramp and head back up to street-level. With the bottom of the ramp right under the 14th avenue street bridge, it's an easy place for thugs to hang out. I reluctantly use the 13th avenue ramp for just these reasons and that it's just a tough entrance with or without having to be on the look out for bastards. By next spring, the less-severe ramps between 10th and 11th avenues will be complete in a pretty much wide-open space. Hopefully that will siphon traffic away from the 13th avenue bridge and alleviate any issues that exist on that ramp.
You can also say hi to me when you use the new ramps at the Cepro site. Actually, no you can't. But I might be watching you.
I'm surprised how coherent this post is considering that I'm almost finished with this glass of wine.
Erica doesn't seem like the sour grapes type...must be more to it.
No, link poaching is a breach of netiquette, and one I respect; if I were actually guilty of it, Erica would be right to call me out. I often find that I have posted links similar to local blogs, particularly Taylor's, because he and I have very similar tastes. I have also linked directly to Taylor's bog, three times last week alone, if I remember correctly, and I know I credited him once recently (or fairly recently, at least). I did not know these rumors of link poaching were swirling around, and would have addressed it had I known.
But I spend fur plus hours going through 300 or so links every single day, and I never post to anything I have not found myself, or, on the rare occasion when I find a post through someone else's blog, I credit them. I post 30 or more links every day, and so of course there is going to be some crossover. There's only so much going on in the local online community, and many of us bloggers have very similar tastes.
But just to make sure that people are clear on this, now that I know there has been concern, I promise that I absolutely will give credit to where I have found links, when I have found them through someone else. I ask in return that when you see a link show up on MnSpeak that has also shown up anywhere else, you give me the benefit of the doubt and assume that I located it myself, probably through exactly the same process the original blogger used to find the link.
That's right, I spend fur hours. What of it?
Taylor has a bog? Are there cranberries in it?
Yeah, I know we all read the same sites and know the same people. It's just that that Greenway story, being on the MGC's site and not in the Strib or something, was pretty obscure. Seriously, what is the likelihood?
But if Max says he didn't do it, then I believe him. It would still be nice if folks gave attribution where it's warranted. For the record, I (personally) have not ever passed on linking back to MNspeak if that's where I saw something first.
I'll also say that I think Max is getting Big Brothered and is probably not at liberty to say anything.
Bx, the apocalypse may indeed be at hand because I agree 100% with every word of your post above. I'm scared. Mommy!
Taylor has a bog? Are there cranberries in it?
Mummified Irishmen.
Even tastier!
Shitbag salad may be Minnesota's greatest contribution to the English language.
tara and bx-
well, yeah, in a perfect world, no child would be born to parents that can't take care of them.
unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. and it's not the kid's fault if their parents aren't around and/or are not perfect parents.
I guess i take a less individualistic and a more societal view toward parenting: we as a society gotta look after our own, even the ones we didn't actually birth.
on plagiarism:
"It seems that the human project is not to keep creating but recreating the world out of the stuff that's come before." -Charles Mee
He copied that, you know.
unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.
Really? No shit. Thanks for letting me know.
and it's not the kid's fault if their parents aren't around and/or are not perfect parents.
Where in the world did I insinuate anything was the kid's fault?
I guess i take a less individualistic and a more societal view toward parenting: we as a society gotta look after our own, even the ones we didn't actually birth.
Have fun "looking after" your "own." Let me know how that goes, and how fulfilling it is when your "own" beats someone you love down in the street and ends up pulling 5 to 10 for aggravated assault. I'm sure you'll find it in your big heart to blame it on 'systemic failure' of all your brethren to look after those they didn't birth. I mean, why not feel so much lighter without all that darn "personal accountability" weighing us down, right?
Sorry, I'm just WAY more in favor of individualistic, PREVENTATIVE approaches to problem solving. Don't have kids when you're not emotionally and financially ready to be accountable for them. That logic is a little more sound than "hey, a bunch of people had kids they can't take care of properly. Let's respond to that behavior by making them dependent on handouts, taking away their power and therefore marginalizing them." THAT mentality places more damaging blame and shame on those children for their existence than any pro-birth control, pro-choice, pro-childfree, pro-abortion propaganda ever could.
Social programs are not handouts. After school programs do not marginalize people.
Dude, I'm not against birth control. I happily use it myself, and believe it should be encouraged in schools. Alls I'm sayin, is sometimes- woops. kids get born to less than stellar parents.
And we can either abandon these children or we can, as a society, decide that it is better for everyone to instead of blaming one person or one group, look at the whole system and figure out how to make it function for everyone better.
Interesting additional commentary relating to this thread is to be found here.
Alls I'm sayin, is sometimes- woops. kids get born to less than stellar parents.
Agreed, this does happen. But looking to schools to fix this problem is never going to get anywhere. You could dump buckets of money into the school system, but until you get rid of the cultural influence that encourages having children when you can't afford them, shuns education, glorifyies violence and criminal behavior, etc. nothing is going to change. And middle class teachers with good intentions aren't the people who are going to bring about this change.
And then there's a whole other conversation around the way our current welfare system not only allows, but encourages women to have multiple babies they can't afford because their welfare check gets bigger with each kid. And it's a different conversation, but it ties into this one because if there weren't so many kids out there being born to parents who don't have the financial means or the inclination to actually raise their children and instill them with respect for others and a decent value system, we wouldn't have so many of these kinds of problems.
And I don't want to give you the impression that I think we should leave these kids high and dry, but there has to be some accountability and repercussions for being a baby factory when you couldn't even afford the first kid. And while helping out the existing kids that had the misfortune of being born into this situation is necessary, the larger effort should be on preventative measures to ensure that we stop having children in this situation.
"the way our current welfare system not only allows, but encourages women to have multiple babies they can't afford because their welfare check gets bigger with each kid"
I believe we were not speaking of mothers who were on welfare. Rather, we were speaking of parents who had multiple jobs and could not be at home.
When I talk about social programs, I'm talking about things like rec centers, community building organizations, and better funding for schools. These programs, I don't think, encourage people to have more babies. Not more than anything else.
Well, looks like in my absence Bx and Tara made the same points I would have, quite eloquently, I might add. The destructive cultural norms include, but are not limited to having kids that you can't afford.
I don't disagree that parents are an extremely important element, but when both parents have to work two jobs, and there is no money for daycare, much less health care, I'd say these are issues that are worth addressing from a societal standpoint, not just an individual one.
Or, these parents could wait to have kids like the rest of us do.
fair enough. but a person doesn't always know that they're going to be desperately poor for the rest of their lives. i imagine many people hope that their life situation will get better, and decide to have kids with the crazy notion that they might indeed at some point be able to stay at home with the child (or afford daycare). It's an annoying reality that we humans are most fertile at a time in our lives when we are not necessarily economically stable.
What?!??! worst arguement ever.. This phrase comes into mind: "poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine." How often do you think that these families breeding thugs had it really good, and all of the sudden, oops, I had no idea we were going to be poor! They grew up poor, and perpetuate the lifestyle of irresponsiblity and dependency. Of course there are many families that look this situation right in the face and overcome with hard work and determination. Then there are the rest.
"Don't have kids when you're not emotionally and financially ready to be accountable for them."
Some people were fine when they had their kids.
Then shit happens: They lose their high paying job with benefits, and end up having to take a low paying job with no benefits. A spouse leaves, or is killed. Medical issues arise, maybe bankrupting the family or leaving a wage earner unable to work because of disability.
Then when shit happens, they need to learn and practice methods of self-preservation that involve as little leaning on the "bailout" systems that exist as possible.
Sure, parents have bad luck just like tons of people, and sure - some folks need to go on food stamps and welfare to get back on their feet. Lots of people hit rock bottom and needs a helping hand to get up; sure. That is the original intention of programs like this. They should be designed to support people very temporarily.
It's when STAYING on that welfare and KEEPING those food stamps for long periods of time becomes elevated to an accepted, almost encouraged, cultural norm that perpetuates epic, inter-generational powerlessness. Children watch the examples made for them by parents who do this and often take the cue to practice the same behavior.
I have all the sympathy in the world for rotten luck, but it's rarely so rotten that you need to rely on welfare/programs long-term. Unfortunately many people do and think that's actually what welfare is for, and that is both a sad and flawed cultural perspective as well as poor design of the programs themselves that it is ever allowed to happen.
And She-she, I admire your mild backpedaling. Your argument suddenly morphed from "our societal duty to 'help' parents who prioritized their fertility over their finances isn't rewarding them for having babies they couldn't afford" to "I was only talking about rec centers and school funding." Yeah OK.
Some people were fine when they had their kids.
Then shit happens: They lose their high paying job with benefits, and end up having to take a low paying job with no benefits. A spouse leaves, or is killed. Medical issues arise, maybe bankrupting the family or leaving a wage earner unable to work because of disability.
These aren't the kind of people that raise children to be thugs. I highly doubt many suburban middle class kids join up with gangs when their parents get laid off or fall on hard times for a spell.
Then shit happens: They lose their high paying job with benefits, and end up having to take a low paying job with no benefits. A spouse leaves, or is killed. Medical issues arise, maybe bankrupting the family or leaving a wage earner unable to work because of disability.
This is not the rule it is the exception. Most of the problems of our "social groups in mpls are from Chicago, Gary, Milwaukee and every war-torn refugee from aroung the globe. They come to mpls to get welfare and to sell drugs at a higher margin, not all but many of them. I have family that work in the school system on the north side and very few of his students are from MN. Furthermore, when the welfare runs out here they move back to were they came from and the whole thing starts all over. Come on. MN dumps more money into education, social programs and health care. We are being played the fool. We are the fool of the Midwest.
When I talk about social programs, I'm talking about things like rec centers, community building organizations, and better funding for schools. These programs, I don't think, encourage people to have more babies. Not more than anything else.
She-she, from what I understand the point you are trying to make is that schools and government programs should step up to the plate and raise these kids and instill them with values when the parents are absent in this role. The point I am trying to make is that while this is a sweet sentiment, I don't think it would ever work. Trying to erradicate behaviors and mind-sets that are instilled by parents, peers, relatives and are enforced by that same group daily would be quite an uphill battle for schools to attempt to undertake. This is not to mention that this goes beyond the missoin and purpose of a school. It seems to me that money and effort would be better spent to try to get rid of the problem in the first place by removing encouragement for parents who can't afford children to keep having them, educating this population about birth control, providing access to birth control, etc.
"I like to think better funding for schools would solve the problem, but whenever I visit our wonderful new library, every "at-risk" kid I see is on a computer, sitting next to his mom, and both are watching hip-hop videos."
'What's wrong with that? Seems like a perfectly wholesome activity to me.'
When pupil and parent enter a ~$150 million libary and eschew Plato, Camus, and Friedman in favor of 50 Cent videos, it becomes perfectly clear to me that funding is not the problem.
But if "Come get ya bitch, she on me dawg" fits your definition of "wholesome," we're not likely to agree on much of anything.
Bx, I wasn't backpedaling. I was never talking about food stamps. i was talking about social programs that enourage community and help keep kids off the streets.
Arts organizations can do this very well. I'm thinking particularly of The Children's Theatre Bridges program, or Heart of the Beast. These organizations not only provide another option for young people that challenges and inspires them, but it also builds a sense of pride in the communities they serve.
These organizations already exist and are doing good work, and I can only imagine how much more good they would do if they received more funding.
Tate, since when are eight year olds expected to read Camus? Jesus. Camus? Nobody should read Camus. Unless they don't have a pulse.
And Tara, obviously parents are an important element in their children's upbringing. I'm not denying that. I just think that community is important as well.
Um...I love Camus.
And i love 50 cent.
cheers.
What do you love about 50 cent?
Because TONS of your average welfare-dependent 8 year olds who "wholesomely" watch hip-hop videos at the library will be SO interested and SAVED! by community puppet theatre. Sorry, she-she. We're all talking Big Picture language and you are not.
And you know what Tate meant. Let me put it in more realistic terms. Our tax money goes to build these huge libraries that offer miles of stacks of books that offer kids a chance to experience language, literature, imagination, storytelling....practically offering a solid-gold-paved path to escaping their poverty, and they choose to watch some hip-hop artists fling cash around and slap women on the ass instead. Is that more understandable to you?
I love Camus, too. Tara, we might as well just fuck each other and get it over with.
Eeek. Never mind that most hip-hop artists promote the culture that breeds the thugs that engage in the criminal activity that got this little thread started.
"They say I walk around like got an "S" on my chest
Naw, that's a semi-auto, and a vest on my chest
I try not to say nothing, the DA might want to play in court
But I'll hunt or duck a nigga down like it's sport"
Charming.
I love Camus, too. Tara, we might as well just fuck each other and get it over with.
Ha! Let's just make sure it's not in an airport bathroom.
Rat- style and poetry.
Bx- too bad these huge libraries are never open because of funding cuts.
rich kids watch rap videos too. they just get to do it in their living rooms.
I'll step up to the shagging tara challenge!
Hey, maybe if 50 cent rapped Camus, that would solve the problem!
Can you put "virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principle of evil" to a beat?
And hey she-she: that last post contained NOTHING. I'm interested in hearing your logic, not your hip-hop-style 'poetry' soundbites.
Bx- too bad these huge libraries are never open because of funding cuts.
Rondo Community Outreach Library
Hours
Monday: 10:00 a.m. - 9:00 p.m.
Tuesday: 10:00 a.m. - 9:00 p.m.
Wednesday: 10:00 a.m. - 9:00 p.m.
Thursday: 10:00 a.m. - 9:00 p.m.
Friday: 10:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
Saturday: 10:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.
Sunday: 1:00 p.m. - 5:00 p.m.
Public Internet Computers: 18
Family Internet Computers: 2
http://www.stpaul.lib.mn.us/locations/rondo.html
Does this count as "never open"? How much longer ought they to be open?
That's saint paul. Minneapolis libraries are a completely different story.
I also just checked the St. Paul Public Library's locations and hours. Hoo boy.
Hey she-she, don't feel too bad about continuing to embarrass yourself here; at least you brought Tara and I to a point of agreement. That should make you feel pretty accomplished, but I know it's small taters compared to being well versed in 50 Cents' poetic contributions to the youth of today.
plug ur holez and stop poppin babiez out! every pregnancy is totally planned! everyone thinks abortion is ok so you can't possibly get knocked up and stuck with a kid you didn't expect!
Minneapolis libraries are a completely different story.
So....then what's the story?
Aug. 28, 2007 - 11:24am — Bx (not verified)
But the shining star of the city library system, the spankin-new fancy-schmancy central library hours are depressing:
Central
Tuesday 10:00 to 8:00
Wednesday 10:00 to 6:00
Thursday 10:00 to 8:00
Friday 10:00 to 6:00
Saturday 10:00 to 6:00
Thanks for cutting the LGA, TPaw! I hate books and schools too!
Last year, three minneapolis libraries closed. the rest were put on a five day a week schedule. hopefully, the merger with Hennipin County will go through.
She-she, the only thing we are stressing is that what we see is not only due to the lack of funding, but also a perpetuated lifestyle of irresponsiblity and dependency.
It's obvious that both are contributors, but to deny that there is a fundamental problem in the cultural aspects of some communities, is just plain denial.
PS, as far as hiphop goes 50 cent is about as untalented as it gets, not to mention a toal gangsta scumbag. Go rent "get rich or die tryin' and then tell me you still love 50 cent.
In fact, this guy disgraces real hip-hop.
SNIFF SNIFF
RATFINK!
Good point, Baker. Hip hop started as a form of REBEL music. I'd love for she-she to tell us what kind of healthy rebellion we can pass onto children (or "style and poetry") exists in this:
when i made 50 mil, Em got paid
when i made 60 mil, Dre got paid
when i made 80 mil, jimmy got paid
i aint even got to rap now life is made
said i aint even got to rap, im filthy maan
I'm laughing straight to the bank with this
ha ha,ha ha ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha ha
im laughing straight to the bank with this
ha ha,ha ha ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha ha
im laughing straight to the bank with this
ha ha,ha ha ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha ha
im laughing straight to the bank with this
ha ha,ha ha ha ha, ha ha, ha ha ha ha
im laughing
brilliant.
I just hope you're actually practicing that birth control we all agreed was a good idea, there, she-she. I can see that you're part of the problem and not the solution.
I keep my chastity belt handy at all times, Bx.
*looks dejected*
She-she, are you actually maintaining that the scumbags on 28th and Pillsbury would reform if we gave them Rondo's library hours? You do realize that gangs just love the Rondo library, right?
Which neighborhood do you live in where the predatory pieces of sh$t--the unsuccessful 50 Cents--are just deprived due to lack of storytime?
I know some very nice people that live near 28th and Pillsbury. Including one person who reads Camus.
Do you? Ask them how they like the assholes who hang out in front of the apartment buildings on the north side of the street in the summer & play your favorite music all night long. Your friends may not know, because they're too busy avoiding it--or they probably live "near" it, by which you mean 24th and 1st.
You obviously don't live in our neighborhood. Or the Rondo or Frogtown for that matter.
Have you asked them to turn the music down? Have you called the cops? Have you organized a block party? Try being an active member in your community.
Have you asked them to turn the music down? Have you called the cops? Have you organized a block party? Try being an active member in your community
I tried all that. Then moved. Oh the big dog did help and the shot gun too. When they are breaking into your garage and you click click the pump and put a shell into the chamber it that does get the little shits attention. short of that good luck.
you should write a rap about that, swandog. You're half as good as fifty cent already, with violence, swearing and bad grammar to boot.
Have you asked them to turn the music down? Have you called the cops? Have you organized a block party? Try being an active member in your community.
I rest my case. My regards to Tangletown!
This is perhaps a little off topic. My partner and I were visiting from Europe a few weeks ago and we went over to the Central Library, the beautiful Pelli construction, to spend a few hours working on our laptops while waiting for our flight out later that day. I was excited about having this seemingly wonderful public space to work and study in. Sadly, we were driven out by the hostile attitude of a few juveniles. They didn't physically attack us, but their loud, confrontational and disrespectful behavior made the whole environment uncomfortable. It made me sad to think that this gorgeous library, with its immense collection and opportunities for learning, is made so unwelcome by a handful of troublemakers.
The sad thing is that there were librarians all over the place in addition to the normal people, who were trying to just go about their business.
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