74 Comments:
I, for one, will never tire of the "don't tase me, bro!" meme.
»» Submitted by wayno at 1:48 PM on January 16
of course not, wayne. I, however, need at least variations on a theme...
from lolbots
»» Submitted by vcmc at 2:07 PM on January 16
I wonder if this got recorded. I remember reading that the Minnesota State Patrol were going to get Taser cams.
»» Submitted by jim n at 2:11 PM on January 16
Is it just me or does it seam that these law enforcement boneheads are a little to eager to use the taser and other forms of force?
»» Submitted by »»» roadking at 2:22 PM on January 16
Is it just me or does it seam that these law enforcement boneheads are a little to eager to use the taser and other forms of force?
With the small amount of information given in that story, how can you come to the point of the officers being at fault for being too eager?
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 2:25 PM on January 16
FWIW, the State Patrol just got their tasers this year
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 2:48 PM on January 16
Seems to me the police have substituted common sense and conflict resolution training for a shot with the taser.
How big of a threat could one man be to 5 trained police officers.
I suppose if he was on PCP. Anyone know if Angel dust is making a comeback in Fridley?
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 2:50 PM on January 16
I thought Angel Dust went out of style with Big Lurch.
How big of a threat could one man be to 5 trained police officers.
Maybe he was 7 feet tall and weighed 300 pounds, maybe he was on drugs, maybe...
All speculation. We don't know the situation and circumstances leading up to it. How can you judge them to be in the wrong at this point?
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 3:00 PM on January 16
What makes me think that the HP could have overreacted is that they were responding to an accident and not some guy who was running from them or trying to harm someone.
Couldn't injuries from the accident make the guy seem disoriented and aggressive?
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 3:02 PM on January 16
c'mon Simpleton, you know better than that: the police aren't in the business of conflict resolution, they're in the business of law enforcement. (not that I necessarily agree that it should be that way -- it's the reason i'm not a cop anymore)
anyway, I think the Patrol allows troopers to use a taser in the use of force continuum at or above an open hand strike . . . so . . . who knows with the amount of information given it's not even worth speculating.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:03 PM on January 16
If they were city police officers I would give them a break.
Highway Patrol...Never.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:03 PM on January 16
why?
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:04 PM on January 16
Every interaction I have ever had with State Patrol has been terrible. One of my good friends is a Hennepin county deputy at the jail and the stories about State Patrol officers sitting outside bars they know the city police go and trolling for drunk cops shows them to be arrogant assholes.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:10 PM on January 16
oh, well, if that's your best example, then I guess I'm still okay with them.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:20 PM on January 16
I wonder if this guy was in an accident due to a diabetic reaction (can cause people to act drunk or become aggressive) and the officers reacted. It's been known to happen.
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 3:25 PM on January 16
could be, it's all speculation at this point. fact of the matter is, though, that even if that were the case, that in itself does not make their response wrong.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:27 PM on January 16
There was the time my sister was dating a Trooper from MN. They were in San Antonio for vacation and my sister asked not to walk down a deserted alley. Her friend (Female Trooper) said "No lets walk down there maybe someone will pull something and I can shoot them."
There was the time I was pulled over for doing 71 in Maple Grove within sight of the 70 MPH sign. I was driving a company car and couldn't find the insurance card immediately and they guy got huffy and stormed off with my ID and wrote me up for no insurance. While he was writing the ticket I found it in the glove box. He got a call while I was showing him the POI. He made a scribble on the ticket and ran off to answer an other call. I got a summons 2 months later for not having POI. I had to take a half day off work unpaid to answer the summons.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:30 PM on January 16
Simple - Wow. After reading that I completely agree. The cops must be the bad guys here.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 3:36 PM on January 16
oh, well, now I guess I hate them all too.
I suppose if every interaction you've ever had has been negative, you're not going to look to flavorably on them -- but I think usually the opposite is true: people think Troopers are more professional. But, you know, as the kids say, whatevs.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:39 PM on January 16
Troopers are assholes.
These Troopers killed that guy.
I'll place money on it.
Where is JD with the mad public information act skills?
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 3:40 PM on January 16
Seriously, is it jump off the deep end day on mnspeak???
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 3:42 PM on January 16
well, with that, conversation over for me.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 3:43 PM on January 16
could be, it's all speculation at this point. fact of the matter is, though, that even if that were the case, that in itself does not make their response wrong.
But it doesn't make them right, either.
Having said that, I'm not judging the situation. I've had good interactions with the HP and not so good - as with many things in life.
I'm wary of the use of tasers in any situation. This situation does bring up the question of whether tasers are used too quickly in situations or not.
For arguments sake, let's say that the guy had an injury or some weird reaction and it wasn't drugs or alcohol. Could the HP dudes have found other ways to subdue this guy without the use of a taser?
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 3:43 PM on January 16
You OK today, Simpleton?
Being a cop is a tough job. It is easy to second guess them. When a cop says something you better listen. They have all of the cards you have none. If you do not do what you are told they are going to tase you period. I will bet that the taser did not cause the guys death but hey make the cops look bad.
»» Submitted by swandog at 3:56 PM on January 16
When a cop says something you better listen.
And what if you can't hear them?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:00 PM on January 16
And what if you can't hear them?
duck?
»» Submitted by grote at 4:02 PM on January 16
MPD Taser Policy
c. Provide clear limits on Taser use on at-risk individuals. We suggest that the Taser policy proscribes Taser use on vulnerable populations, including children, the elderly, frail or injured, the mentally ill, and pregnant women, unless exigent circumstances exist
I don't think police should carry tasers at all. I'll wait to see how long it is before it is announced that none of the troopers cameras captured the incident. I'm guessing the 5 officers are all sitting together writing consistant reports right now.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 4:02 PM on January 16
Or if the guy's injuries aren't allowing him to.
Of course being a cop is a tough job, as are many other jobs. And because they are public servants, they are obligated to do what is in the best interest of the community in which they serve.
The guy's death is tragic and hopefully it is found that the cops didn't abuse the use of the taser.
But, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't question it's use.
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 4:06 PM on January 16
Dude, who would tase a pregnant woman? That's harsh.
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 4:06 PM on January 16
The issue for me is one that is similar to mission creep: That the use of something has expanded beyond its intention. First of all, as a series of deaths have demonstrated, the taser is not a non-lethal alternative to deadly force. It is a semi-lethal alternative. People can and do die as the result of taser uses.
Secondly, if the taser is intended as an alternative to deadly force, then it should be used when deadly force would otherwise be required. Instead, police tend to use it to simplify their job. Somebody fights back a little, taser him. Somebody talks back, taser him. In the famous "Don't tase me, bro!" instance, there was no moment where deadly force might have been required. The taser was used simply for the convenience of the arresting officers, to subdue someone for inappropriate speech.
Seeing that the taser can, and does, kill, it should be treated like a pistol. And it hasn't been, and that's where the debate comes up.
Dude, who would tase a pregnant woman? That's harsh.
obviously you've never tried microwaved fetus.
»» Submitted by grote at 4:09 PM on January 16
Grote, is that the new specialty at Le Belle Vie? Le Confit Bebe...
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 4:11 PM on January 16
Oh here we go... eating babies again. For the last time grote, you fondue them. They're so good with cheese.
I agree that tasers aren't the answer to non-lethal force.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 4:12 PM on January 16
There was that nice place in Uptown that did a nice grilled fetus, but it closed because of the smoking ban. (Two -- two -- two threads in one!)
max, tasers are not used as an alternative to deadly force. that is incorrect.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 4:14 PM on January 16
Really? How do you figure? Because that's precisely how it was marketed.
depends on the agency but around these parts, the continuum is usually something like: verbal commands, open hand control, taser, spray, close fist strikes and/or baton and last deadly force, in that order. meaning, an officer can use a taser long before they would be able to use deadly force. that doesn't mean, though, that they couldn't use it instead of deadly force.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 4:20 PM on January 16
But it is.
Max cited one (the "don't tase me bro" situation)
There was also the incident at the Canadian airport where a man died after being tased.
I'm sure a little time searching would turn up many more instances.
You always hear people talk about how few cops actually even pull there weapon during their career, let alone shoot someone. And there are an awful lot of taser incidents. I doubt that most of those cases would have resulted in shootings in the days before tasers were introduced.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:22 PM on January 16
Oh, I dig.
Weird that taser comes before spray. I've been sprayed. I'd much rather be sprayed than tasered.
i would suspect the taser might move up the scale a bit -- and i think it should. there are a few good tactical considerations, though, for why it is where it is on the continuum as I've listed it
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 4:22 PM on January 16
verbal commands, open hand control, taser, spray, close fist strikes and/or baton and last deadly force, in that order.
maybe they should switch closed fists with taser. Shouldn't tasers be as close to the last weapon used?
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 4:24 PM on January 16
I've had both, and I agree. Being tased absolutely sucks. But as I said there are reasons it's listed there. But . . . gotta run!
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 4:24 PM on January 16
whoops, I'm got mixed up. I'm citing instances of max's "mission creep."
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:27 PM on January 16
There was also the incident at the Canadian airport where a man died after being tased.
you saw the video. dude was a wildman. how would you prefer the cops handle that situation? try and tackle the guy and risk getting killed? i say taze away, bro.
»» Submitted by cubbie at 4:46 PM on January 16
The MPD policy suggests that Taser be put between closed fist and lethal force. I have a hard time believing that 5 officers thought near deadly force was needed on someone that was just in an auto accident.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 4:50 PM on January 16
you saw the video.
Nope. I don't waste my time with internet video.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:51 PM on January 16
I have a hard time believing that you are still going on about this. Does the article specify that the guy was without a weapon of some kind?? No, so why don't you wait for the reports to come out detailing the situation before jumping to the conclusion you are so set on.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 4:53 PM on January 16
If he had a weapon it would have said more than he was "being uncooperative"
mb21 if I'm right you should hide in shame for your defending of these betrayers of the public trust.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 4:55 PM on January 16
You're nuts.
I'm not defending anyone, simply saying wait for the facts to come out. However, it is pretty obvious you have your mind made up.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 4:58 PM on January 16
The police have way too much in the way of a "Do Not Question Authority" mindset, and are way too eager to use their TASERs.
Oftentime these devices are being used as a field grade punishment for "lack of compliance". I can come up with several examples, if needed.
As for the "always listen to a cop" mindset, the fact that we're so ready to give up our liberties and play dead is sickening.
»» Submitted by Binky .357 at 4:58 PM on January 16
and the stories about State Patrol officers sitting outside bars they know the city police go and trolling for drunk cops shows them to be arrogant assholes.
How is this any different than the city police sitting outside bars waiting to bust people?
Also, I've known a few cops that thought it was funny to drive drunk as a cop. Maybe someone should be policing them.
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 5:23 PM on January 16
I'm back -- for a bit -- just enough time to point out that this was not the MPD, so I don't know why their use of force policy would apply to the State Patrol.
»» Submitted by »»» spaceman at 5:43 PM on January 16
easier to bash the mpd. comes naturally to some here.
»» Submitted by »»» baker at 5:58 PM on January 16
I'm just sick of this tough-guy cowboy bullshit that seems to go with a badge. How many civilians have been killed during over zealous police actions? High speed chases, needles tazing, beatings delivered by baton. The list goes on and on.
Has anybody here seen the video of the drunk woman who was repeatedly tazed by asshole cops because she wouldn't lay on the ground... FOR BEING DRUNK!!!
I'm not anti cop although it may sound like it. I have friends and relatives in law enforcement. There just seems to be a lack of accountability when force is used.
»» Submitted by »»» roadking at 8:09 PM on January 16
Nope. I don't waste my time with internet video.
wow, too lazy to view the evidence, but bold enough to have a strong opinion. kudos. (ps, it was on cnn.)
»» Submitted by cubbie at 8:07 AM on January 17
I actually wasn't bashing the MPD. More Praising them for having a good policy on Taser use. The news this morning makes this even more upsetting.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 8:07 AM on January 17
[a day later] Max and Cat: yes, some departments do have it at the level of pepper spray -- or even above it. There is no standard policy.
A couple tactical considerations though: there was some concern that if OC (pepper spray) was used, and then, if it didn't work, a taser was deployed, that the taser could start the OC on fire. We can all agree that would not be good. OC also has after effects that tend to last much longer -- hours -- after it has been deployed. And the sprayback is very hard to control and can go into an officer's face. Tasers are also easier to effectively deploy than OC. Lastly, OC is not without deaths related to it as well.
That's why these tools/weapons are rarely, if ever, referred to by police and their lawyers as "non-lethal" -- they are referred to as "less-lethal."
by the way Simpleton, I do not believe that is the MPDs policy -- I think those are policy recommendations. I would really like to see what the actual policy is.
In 6-8 months there will be a small article on the second page of the Local section with little to no detail of what happened and we will all have moved on but that nice man that was driving to the airport to pick up his parents will still be dead.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 8:19 AM on January 17
wow, too lazy to view the evidence, but bold enough to have a strong opinion. kudos. (ps, it was on cnn.)
mnblrmkr is HOH and internet vids do not have close captioning...
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 8:29 AM on January 17
Whatever happened to nightsticks?
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 9:04 AM on January 17
They worked well on smelly hippies, but you have a different breed of rabble-rouser these days.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:26 AM on January 17
As for the "always listen to a cop" mindset, the fact that we're so ready to give up our liberties and play dead is sickening
Good point. The only thing is in that situation you have no power and I agree that can and may be misused by the police.
»» Submitted by swandog at 9:41 AM on January 17
Nope. I don't waste my time with internet video.
wow, too lazy to view the evidence, but bold enough to have a strong opinion. kudos. (ps, it was on cnn.)
Don't have cable either.
I don't bother with any internet video because almost everyone that posts is too lazy to caption their videos, and I'm not going to waste my time wading through all of them to find the couple that are.
Nor do I feel like boosting the traffic of websites that can't be bothered to make their content accessible.
I was basing my opinion on the way everyone used to base their opinion on a news event: by written news reports.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:11 AM on January 17
mnblrmkr is HOH and internet vids do not have close captioning...
BELIEVE ME, i know. it seems to come up every other day.
I was basing my opinion on the way everyone used to base their opinion on a news event: by written news reports.
or, you know, you could take 4 secondsto watch it and form your own opinion.
»» Submitted by cubbie at 11:41 AM on January 17
Why would he want to watch something he can't hear? Or does it not come with sound?
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 11:43 AM on January 17
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 12:35 PM on January 17
or, you know, you could take 4 secondsto watch it and form your own opinion.
First, what's wrong with using the same information gathering technique that's served us well for a few hundred years?
Second, why should I be giving my business/traffic to a company/site that isn't interested in serving my needs as a customer?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:00 PM on January 17
really? you can watch something with your own 2 eyes, but you'd rather rely on someone else to tell you what happened? if you're missing one of your senses, why wouldn't you take full advantage of the working ones?
dude, every single thing in this world can't be customized for you. i'm 6'3 and just spent the last 2.5 hours on a tiny airplane. my knees hurt, my neck hurts...i guess i could demand every plane be supersized just for moi, or i could deal with it. man you're difficult.
»» Submitted by cubbie at 5:04 PM on January 17
Simpleton FTW!!!!
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 5:07 PM on January 17
really? you can watch something with your own 2 eyes, but you'd rather rely on someone else to tell you what happened? if you're missing one of your senses, why wouldn't you take full advantage of the working ones?
There's too much aural context that can alter how you perceive what you're seeing. Just seeing a video of someone flailing about isn't going to give me much information whether he deserved to be tasered.
dude, every single thing in this world can't be customized for you. i'm 6'3 and just spent the last 2.5 hours on a tiny airplane. my knees hurt, my neck hurts...i guess i could demand every plane be supersized just for moi, or i could deal with it. man you're difficult.
That's just asinine, comparing a desire for improved comfort with a desire for basic usability.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 5:37 PM on January 17
Strib:
As police have adopted Tasers, departments have revised use-of-force procedures that guide officers in using the devices. A 2005 Government Accountability Office study of seven law enforcement agencies found that policies varied. Generally, the policies called for the Taser to be used when a suspect is assaulting an officer or acting volatile. One department allowed its use if a suspect doesn't respond to the officer's orders.
I want to know where that department is, so I can stay the hell away from there. That strikes me as such an unwarranted escalation, and as someone who may or may not even HEAR the orders, I don't want to put myself at such risk.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:30 AM on January 18
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