170 Comments:
How long before someone tries to pin this on Obama?
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 12:50 PM on May 9
They pretty much let the little fuckers do whatever they want in every other way, why bother with this shit?
»» Submitted by Schools Going Too Far at 12:51 PM on May 9
I blame Obama.
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 12:53 PM on May 9
Obviously the previous poster was the recipient of such an excellent education that he is in an ideal position to criticize modern schooling.
Dilworth-Glyndon-Felton
The Rat knows the area well. It always had a streak of defiance.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 12:54 PM on May 9
Whoops. I don't mean JACC, of course.
I thought this was settled decades ago with the Jehovah's Witnesses.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 12:56 PM on May 9
... and wasn't the Pledge the object already of the famous '60s era court case re: separation church and state?
Whoops. I don't mean JACC, of course.
Why not Max?
Because I dun learnt everything I need knowin' from a barn yard at a mayonaisse farm?
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 1:00 PM on May 9
When they brought back the pledge, didn't they insist that it was optional? I seem to recall that the statute made it optional when Jesse 'The Guv' Ventura signed it.
It was like a scene in a movie, where I was a cop, but instead of bullet, I shoot snark, and you just walked right into the line of fire as I pulled the trigger.
Now I will reture to a houseboat and make paper cranes to represent everyone my snark has killed.
I once got in an argument with someone who was angry that people didn't stand up for "God Bless America" at baseball games, which isn't even the National Anthem. That fact being pointed out, and that there was no precedent for it, she said "I still think they ought to stand up for it."
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 1:06 PM on May 9
The student led pledge at my middle school kinda went away after my friend Bill ended it with "...liberty and justice for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllll righty then."
»» Submitted by kevin at 1:06 PM on May 9
"Students can respectfully not participate in the Pledge of Allegiance."
My guess is that this is not about the pledge but more about the kids just being a pain in the ass and that is why it has taken so long to punish them. The school screwed up by punishing them for something that is unconstitutional, the kids have a right not to participate. That said, I would make life absolute hell for these kids, they better follow every rule there is or they would live in detention.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:06 PM on May 9
Can anyone fill me in on when "one nation under God" was added? I have heard 70s or 80s. I thought that schools were supposed to avoid all mention of God. Hypocrites.
»» Submitted by »»» sornie at 1:09 PM on May 9
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 1:10 PM on May 9
For a season at the dome, they played that Lee Greenwood song during the stretch.
Ostentatious displays of patriotism makes The Rat uncomfortable. Not sure why.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:11 PM on May 9
the kids have a right not to participate.
I wonder what would happen if they refused to participate in Earth Day? Do they have a right to refuse to pledge allegiance to Mother Earth?
»» Submitted by hmmm at 1:12 PM on May 9
Knights of Columbus, eh. So they're probably working on a version that now says "One nation, Under God, Indivisible, with marriage defined as being a unique relationship between a man and a woman and homosexual unions not recognized by law."
Can anyone fill me in on when "one nation under God" was added?
Genesis
"didn't they insist that it was optional"
It is, but they still have to stand.
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 1:12 PM on May 9
I'm with The Rat on this one. Probably because I've studied enough world history to know where that sort of behaviour inevitably leads.
Lee Greenwood. that guy sucks. didn't he sleep with Roger Clemens?
»» Submitted by grote at 1:13 PM on May 9
I wonder what would happen if they refused to participate in Earth Day? Do they have a right to refuse to pledge allegiance to Mother Earth?
Well, said. And by that, I mean, wtf?
I think we should change it to "One Nation, Under Canada..." doesn't anyone read maps any more?
»» Submitted by grote at 1:13 PM on May 9
Any nation that demands professions of allegiance is not one I wish to live in.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 1:13 PM on May 9
Ostentatious displays of patriotism makes The Rat uncomfortable. Not sure why.
cuz you're a democrat.
»» Submitted by oh yeah at 1:14 PM on May 9
thank you, Dennis Tester.
»» Submitted by grote at 1:15 PM on May 9
Max you forgot the last part, "with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn."
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 1:15 PM on May 9
I think we should change it to "One Nation, Under Canada..." doesn't anyone read maps any more?
So would you also support "One Nation, Over Mexico..."?
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 1:15 PM on May 9
Can anyone fill me in on when "one nation under God" was added?
IIRC, 1954-ish. The original Pledge up until then was sans "one Nation under God."
I have a hard time getting in the swing of it.
That and the religious displays.
I saw video of those guys in the Promise Keepers, hugging and bawling and carrying on.
You wanna say, "yeeesh, buddy! Get ahold of yourself!"
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:16 PM on May 9
That guy leaves a room in a huff, but then comes right back in through the window in a fake mustache.
»» Submitted by Hello Maz at 1:17 PM on May 9
"Is this a case of schools going too far or were the students disrespecting America?"
I'm pretty sure any citizen is allowed to disrespect American to their heart's delight in our little democracy thing we got going...
»» Submitted by g3rg at 1:17 PM on May 9
IIRC, 1954-ish
Genesis
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 1:17 PM on May 9
So would you also support "One Nation, Over Mexico..."?
perhaps...but I'd more comfortable with "One Egg, Over Easy with Bacon, Hash Browns and Dry Wheat Toast"
»» Submitted by grote at 1:20 PM on May 9
Sigh:
1) It's unconstitutional to require students to say the Pledge
2) It's against Minnesota law (Minn Stat 121A.11, subd. 3(b)) to require students to say the Pledge.
Who don't we require school administrators to brush up on legal issues so these idiotic kerfuffles don't happen again and again?
»» Submitted by mike s at 1:21 PM on May 9
... and liberty and bong hits for all
»» Submitted by The Dude Abides at 1:23 PM on May 9
I didn't realize schools were even having kids say the pledge anymore. My elementary school stopped doing it entirely when I was in the 4th grade. Better to not do it all than to go through this bullshit, I say.
don't we require school administrators to brush up on legal issues so these idiotic kerfuffles don't happen again and again?
The problem wasn't that kids weren't saying the pledge. They weren't standing when told.
Do you support the concept that students do whatever they want, whenever they want, without consequence?
»» Submitted by Some Guy at 1:24 PM on May 9
Ostentatious displays of patriotism makes The Rat uncomfortable. Not sure why.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
-Samuel Johnson.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:24 PM on May 9
And I'm with Rat on the whole creepy pledge thing. It makes America feel like an Elks Lodge meeting or something.
If these kids were like some little Peanut Gallery snickering and making smart-ass remarks during the pledge, they probably deserve some kind of punishment. But just opting should not get them suspended.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:25 PM on May 9
A lot of schools brought it back after 9/11...
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
-Samuel Johnson.
I actually disagree with that. I've found it's often the first refuge.
I mean "opting out"
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:26 PM on May 9
where is Dilhole, MN anyways?
»» Submitted by grote at 1:27 PM on May 9
I don't consider most people who make a big show of their patriotism to be scoundrels. I just feel a little restless when it all gets started and then I start wondering what's wrong with me for not feeling the same way.
You, see. I have some issues.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:29 PM on May 9
Dilworth is about 10 miles from Moorhead, along Highway 10. Glyndon is about five miles from Dilworth
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:30 PM on May 9
When I moved here in third grade I thought it was really funny that the class had to stand a pray before the day could start. I later learned that it was the pledge, but I swear at least one person a day would end it with "amen". I never got in trouble for not knowing it, but I did also stand with everyone else and mumble to cover up the fact that I had no idea what was going on.
By 6th grade they no longer did the pledge, so I was off the hook.
On a side note, anyone who looks at me funny for not holding hand to heart, somberly at a stinkin baseball game national anthem can suck it. And by it, i mean the gallon of beer in front of them or the half dozen dome dogs scuttled away in there crotch. Sorry kids, the ballpark is no place to measure up on patriotism.
»» Submitted by StandishCanuck at 1:30 PM on May 9
If these kids were like some little Peanut Gallery snickering and making smart-ass remarks during the pledge, they probably deserve some kind of punishment. But just opting should not get them suspended.
From what I could tell in the article, it seems like the principal (as a Vietnam war vet stationed in Japan) had an axe to grind.
One nation, (Sponsorships available), with liberty and justice for all (some?).
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:30 PM on May 9
I work in schools and the pledge always catches me off guard when I'm in a classroom and it starts. I don't stand and sometimes I wonder if the teachers might not appreciate that, oh well. I think it's a little creepy too.
»» Submitted by jimn at 1:35 PM on May 9
Dilworth is about 10 miles from Moorhead, along Highway 10. Glyndon is about five miles from Dilworth
10 miles? You haven't been there in a LONG time, Rat. Maybe if you're measuring form the Red River to the Eastern city limit of Dilworth you can get 10 miles. They're shoulder to shoulder now. And even before it's got to be less than 5 miles from the river to the western edge of Dilworth.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:36 PM on May 9
I consider most people who refer themselves constantly in the 3rd person to be enemies of the state.
I mean The State.
I think we should make these little shits say 30 "Our Fathers" as penance.
That'll teach 'em to fuck with Freedom.
Didn't Bart Simpson have a spoof of the pledge? The only references I've found so far are a couple of chalkboard bits: "I will not pledge allegiance to Bart" and "The pledge does not end with 'Hail Satan.'"
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 1:38 PM on May 9
The problem wasn't that kids weren't saying the pledge. They weren't standing when told.
Do you support the concept that students do whatever they want, whenever they want, without consequence
No but the school fell right into a shit storm on this one. The other thing with this is that the school should have used this as an opportunity to teach kids why you do not have to stand. My solution would have been to humiliate the little shits and pointed out that people died for them to have the right not to stand but that said their is no law against others condemning them for their actions and making them feel like the garbage they are.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:48 PM on May 9
I'm from Rollag, Rat, just down the road apiece from Dilworth, Glyndon, Hawley, etc.
»» Submitted by »»» kiltgirl at 1:50 PM on May 9
Helped a buddy of mine's grandfather bale hay at the Steamthresher's Reunion once. Know Rollag well.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 1:53 PM on May 9
This seemed like a perfect way for the principal to stick it to a couple kids who appeared to hate America after he fought for its freedom in 'Nam. The only problem being that it backfired. Horribly.
»» Submitted by »»» sornie at 1:55 PM on May 9
Swandog, I don't think the school is allowed to make kids stand at all. You must have a low tolerance for any type of disobedience, calling kids garbage for refusing to stand up.
Sornie, the beauty of it is that he was stationed in Japan.
My farmer brother-in-law has been to that steam engine event in Rollag. I've had my picture taken by the Giant Prairie Chicken in Rothsay.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 1:57 PM on May 9
$#$#%#! filter -- it wouldn't let me respond to the point about standing, and then it deleted my comment, and now I'm half logged (on the front page) but apparently not logged in here.
Suffice to say, Some Guy, that the school can't require these kids to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance. The 1943 case I cited above gets into both the Pledge and a Flag Salute, a non-verbal sign of support. Requiring these kids to stand during the pledge is requiring them to express a viewpoint (even if they aren't saying a word, the school is still making them show respect for the flag) and I can't for a second imagine that a court would allow it. No-brainer, yo.
»» Submitted by mike s at 1:58 PM on May 9
Is he named Principal Sobchak?
God damn you Walter! You fuckin' asshole! Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man! And what was all that shit about Vietnam? What the FUCK, has anything got to do with Vietnam? What the fuck are you talking about?
Well, there's a literal connection.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:07 PM on May 9
Look, Larry. Have you ever heard of Vietnam?
and I can't for a second imagine that a court would allow it. No-brainer, yo.
I wouldn't want any money on that with the SC we have now.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:10 PM on May 9
y'all know the pledge was written by a depression-era socialist, right? more or less as a pro-Federal anti-states-autonomy anti-Southern social engineering project? "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America (not the stars and bars)" is the subtext. "One nation, indivisible (ixnay on the secession BS), with liberty and justice for all (maybe even black people)"
The "under God" bit was added as an anti-communist gesture, as others have pointed out.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:11 PM on May 9
Swandog, I don't think the school is allowed to make kids stand at all. You must have a low tolerance for any type of disobedience, calling kids garbage for refusing to stand up.
I agree the school is not allowed to make them stand and I support the kids right not to stand. I would be the first to defend that right. However, I have a right to call them what ever name I want to. I think these kids are garbage and the parent of these kids are garbage and should be treated as such. Just because someone has a right not to do something does not mean others have an obligation to agree or support that action. I have a low tolerance of shit head kids who think that they are entitled to disrespect this country but I support their right to do so. I hope the town treats these kids like shit and I hope they are made to feel unwelcome in their community, others have have rights too. I hope no one employs them and I hope the parents are a told that they have raised a kid that is garbage. But hey don't stand but kids also need to learn about consequences.
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:12 PM on May 9
Rollag's a pretty spot. Actually I went to church in Cormorant, school in Pelican Rapids (home of the world's largest pelican, speaking of MN roadside oddities, justpbob), but dated the Lake Park boys.
»» Submitted by »»» kiltgirl at 2:12 PM on May 9
Wow, swandog, you support their right but call them garbage for doing something that in all actuality is not against the law and for having their civil rights violated by suspending them from school?
i didn't stand for the pledge one day in 1989 and got my ass handed to me by my homeroom teacher who was a Vietnam Vet. i wasn't suspended, but i got bitched out big time.
i skipped homeroom from then on.
what can i say? i was 14 and kind of a punk.
»» Submitted by honey bunny at 2:15 PM on May 9
Swandog: "I support you having rights, but you're an asshole for actually exercising them."
I went to church in Cormorant
I go to Cormorant every other weekend in the summer.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:17 PM on May 9
For the record:
1. Dilworth is 3.5 miles east of the Moorhead Center Mall.
2. Rollag Steam thrashers is perhaps the most boring yet fascinating fest in the upper midwest. Haven't been for years, but should go.
3. Rothsay Chicken beats Pelican Rapids Pelican hands down. Both have there charm, but the chicken stands taller I think and it is even more pointless as there is nothing but that truck stop around it.
4. I saw an ad for WeFest on a Metro bus the other day. Wow, that's early advertising and do people from down here really go up for that?
»» Submitted by StandishFargoan at 2:19 PM on May 9
It's kind of hard for me to reconcile "I support the right to ______" with "but I hope anyone who does so is severely punished for it."
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:20 PM on May 9
My solution would have been to humiliate the little shits and pointed out that people died for them to have the right not to stand but that said their is no law against others condemning them for their actions and making them feel like the garbage they are.
I don't understand this. If people died for their right not to stand, if they were to then go ahead and stand, wouldn't those people have died in vain?
And who specifically died so that people could choose not to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? That seems an odd thing to die for.
4. I saw an ad for WeFest on a Metro bus the other day. Wow, that's early advertising and do people from down here really go up for that?
They come from ALLLLL Over to go to that. I try to avoid the area that weekend.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:23 PM on May 9
It seems to me that the ingrates are the ones who don't use a gift, not the ones who do.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:23 PM on May 9
I've never even understood trying to force kids to make a pledge of allegience that they barely understand. Aren't the only meaningful pledges the ones you understand and choose to make?
Wow, swandog, you support their right but call them garbage for doing something that in all actuality is not against the law and for having their civil rights violated by suspending them from school?
I don't think the school should have suspended them.
Swandog: "I support you having rights, but you're an asshole for actually exercising them
Yup, I think that is my point about the little garbage kids. We all have rights but rights come with responsibility and accountability. You might think that I am an ass hole and if I cared that would be an outcome of my actions. The fact that I do not care if a group or individual thinks I am an asshole makes life much easier, I suspect that that is how these kids feel my point is I would make their life as hellish as possible if I lived in that community. That would be an outcome of an action. Civility to shitheads is not a required by law.
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:33 PM on May 9
I don't think you're understanding my lack of understanding for your arguement.
it's a social ritual, the "meaning" is hardly contained in the words anymore. it's not like 3rd graders are actually reaffirming their allegiance and devotion to republic every day, they're just reapeating some archaic phrases that crazy adults have a lot of emotional investment in.
it's not like this is required at places of adult activity -- colleges? a place of work? yeah, that'd go down great, wouldn't it. maybe swandog would like it, who knows.
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:35 PM on May 9
What scares me the most is this growing idea that there are only certain ways to be patriotic. You don't have the right to force me to show respect for my country in ways you deem correct.
If I don't stand for the pledge, I'm being disrespectful to my country? Puhleeze.
You're not the boss of me.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 2:38 PM on May 9
don't understand this. If people died for their right not to stand, if they were to then go ahead and stand, wouldn't those people have died in vain?
their rights are protected, but others have rights too and if they want to exercises those rights they are free to do so. The KKK has a right to march but I have a right to tell them to go fuck themselves.
And who specifically died so that people could choose not to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance? That seems an odd thing to die for.
Do you think that the British would have allowed an individual not to stand for the king or the flag?
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:38 PM on May 9
Aren't the only meaningful pledges the ones you understand and choose to make?
Like your abstinence pledge, max?
Yeah, that went well.
»» Submitted by wayno at 2:38 PM on May 9
I think your anger and priorities are a little misplaced, swandog. But, whatevs.
The fact that I do not care if a group or individual thinks I am an asshole makes life much easier, I suspect that that is how these kids feel my point is I would make their life as hellish as possible if I lived in that community.
So you don't care what people think, and yet you feel like your opinion should be meaningful to these kids? Despite the fact that you admit to acting like an asshole? You are just confusing me further.
And you call them garbage?
i'm curious to know how swandog would go about making life miserable for a few eighth graders. it's a civic duty, after all. a few crank calls? water balloons? get a couple of Young Republicans from NDSU to rough them up?
if you want to know why contemporary conservatism is in the toilet, look at posts like that. FAR more caught up with other people's shame and suffering than in actual liberties. no wonder the movement is bleeding votes, who'd want to live under people like that?
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:41 PM on May 9
Milo carefully said nothing when Major de Coverley stepped into the mess hall with his fierce and austere dignity the day he returned and found his way blocked by a wall of officers waiting in line to sign loyalty oaths. At the far end of the food counter, a group of men who had arrived earlier were pledging allegiance to the flag, with trays of food balanced in one hand, in order to be allowed to take seats at the table. Already at the tables, a group that had arrived still earlier was singing The Star-Spangled Banner in order that they might use the salt and pepper and ketchup there. The hubub began to subside slowly as Major de Coverley paused in the doorway with a frown of puzzled disapproval, as though viewing something bizarre. He started forward in a straight line, and the wall of officers before him parted like the Red Sea. Glancing neither left nor right, he strode indomitably up to the steam counter and, in a clear, full-bodied voice that was gruff with age and resonant with ancient eminence and authority, said:
Gimme eat.
Instead of eat, Corporal Snark gave Major de Coverley a loyalty oath to sign. Major de Coverley swept it away with mighty displeasure the moment he recognized what it was, his good eye flaring up blindingly with fiery disdain and his enormous old corrugated face darkening in mountainous wrath.
Gimme eat, I said, he ordered loudly in harsh tones that rumbled ominously through the silent tent like claps of distant thunder.
Corporal Snark turned pale and began to tremble. He glanced toward Milo pleadingly for guidance. For several terrible seconds there was not a sound. Then Milo nodded.
Give him eat, he said.
Corporal Snark began giving Major de Coverley eat. Major de Coverley turned from the counter with his tray full and came to a stop. His eyes fell on the groups of other officers gazing at him in mute appeal, and, with righteous belligerence, he roared:
Give everybody eat!
Give everybody eat! Milo echoed with joyful relief, and the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade came to an end.
Catch-22
»» Submitted by Joseph Heller at 2:42 PM on May 9
I don't think you're understanding my lack of understanding for your argument.
You have rights to do what you please, others have rights to tell you to go fuck your self. The key is this, the kids don't have to stand but I and others of like mind do not have to be kind, help encourage or employ them. No one has an obligation to support these kids and they have every right to socially outcast them from the community with in the law of course.
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:43 PM on May 9
you are a cranky bitter person, aren't you?
»» Submitted by wayno at 2:43 PM on May 9
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for shaming kids, but I think it should be for something they actually deserve to get shamed for, such as their terrible taste in music.
I admire these kids for standing up for what they believe in. You don't see much of that--usually they try so hard to fit in, and bend under pressure.
»» Submitted by amy2004 at 2:44 PM on May 9
yeah "within the law" is the kicker. harassing a bunch of kids or firing their parents from their jobs (!!) because of this would be, how you say, illegal
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:44 PM on May 9
"Upon reflection, I came to understand that while I could defend their absence from my address, I had missed an opportunity ... an opportunity to clearly assert that non-believers have just as great a stake as believers in defending religious liberty... If a society takes it upon itself to prescribe and proscribe certain streams of belief to prohibit certain less-favored strains of conscience it may be the non-believer who is among the first to be condemned. A coercive monopoly of belief threatens everyone, whether we are talking about those who search the philosophies of men or follow the words of God."
^^ three guesses who said this, recently
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:46 PM on May 9
We wouldn't have to worry about this if someone had eaten them as babies.
I'd rather see my kids have a well-rounded educational experience that includes an in-depth history of our nation vs. making them recite memorized paragraphs that have zero meaning to them.
Curious Swandog, do you sing the national anthem every time you hear it?
»» Submitted by mb@work at 2:47 PM on May 9
three guesses who said this, recently
Hitler?
Why would you want to socially outcast kids for such a minor thing? I never said you shouldn't have a right to your opinion, I just suggeseted it was a little harsh for not standing for a pledge they are not required to make. Maybe you should go shoot some guns or something.
My guess is Ryan Seacrest.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:48 PM on May 9
put those two together and you're pretty close, actually
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:49 PM on May 9
No, it is David Hasselhoff
»» Submitted by mb@work at 2:49 PM on May 9
I was shamed in high school for my love of moon pies and for dancing down the hallway rather than walking. Oh, yeah and for showing up for school as an asian kid.
Swandog: You so would've hated me in Jr. High.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 2:49 PM on May 9
Mitt.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:50 PM on May 9
ding ding ding
»» Submitted by »»» geoff at 2:52 PM on May 9
The key is this, the kids don't have to stand but I and others of like mind do not have to be kind, help encourage or employ them. No one has an obligation to support these kids and they have every right to socially outcast them from the community with in the law of course.
Actually Swandog, there are plenty of people who do have an obligation to support these kids. If a teacher started shunning them because they didn't stand for the pledge, I'd call for that teacher to be disciplined. And if the ACLU caught wind of someone denying them employment because of it, I can practically guarantee they'd have a court case and the legal standing to bring it forward.
Bottom line, Swandog, what you're advocating is so far removed from democracy and a free society it makes me question whether you understand the concept. We all have the right to live our lives without threat of persecution for our beliefs. That doesn't mean people have to like them. But it certainly means people have to tolerate them unless they somewhat abridge our ability to exercise our own rights.
By your logic, if you don't conform, you need to be "taught a lesson" and are "garbage." Guess what -- that's the same sort of thinking that was prevalent in Germany prior to the actual passage of laws that began the persecution of Jews in that country in the 1930s. And as a more contemporary example -- the same thinking that gets women who don't wear head scarves in Afghan villages beaten and killed. Not saying those extremes would happen here, but it's definitely a very similar line of thought.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 2:55 PM on May 9
Ostentatious displays make me nervous, whether they be religious, intellectual or patriotic. Coercive displays make me ill as well. Following the herd is a sure road to doing something you will regret.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 2:56 PM on May 9
you are a cranky bitter person, aren't you?
He makes you look like a fuzzy little kitten, Wayne...
(I kid)
Ostentatious displays make me nervous,
That's why I stopped wearing tight pants. That and that park rangers kept pulling me over because they were convinced I was trying to smuggle an otter.
I admire these kids for standing up for what they believe in.
What do they believe in?
The story didn't say this was out of some kind of belief system.
They just didn't wanna do it.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 2:58 PM on May 9
The Strib has updated the story:
Three small-town eighth-graders in Minnesota were suspended by their principal for not standing Thursday morning for the Pledge of Allegiance, violating a district policy that the principal now says may soon be reworded to protect free speech rights.
...
Colleen Houglum, the principal who suspended the three, acknowledged in a statement late this morning that the policy requirement that " 'all students will stand' may need to be modified to address the protection of the individual's form of expression."
Kim Dahl said Houglum called her this morning and informed her of the possible accommodation. "I think they are handling it quite professionally," Kim Dahl said, adding that Houglum told her that school officials "are taking some steps to take the [suspensions] off their records."
That possible shift was met with disappointment from Olson, who said the school board would have to approve any policy change. While he said he'll fall in line with whatever change may occur, "I still have my beliefs."
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:58 PM on May 9
I am very similar to fuzzy kittens.
»» Submitted by wayno at 2:58 PM on May 9
Wait, a public school trying to intimidate and squelch dissenting opinions?
And, weren't you in favor of throwing out bullies from school? Because making someone's life miserable for their beliefs is the very definition of bullying. Make up your mind, dude.
I was trying to smuggle an otter
Your voracious appetite for clams makes a lot of sense now.
»» Submitted by mb@work at 3:02 PM on May 9
I'm invoking Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies on Richg
»» Submitted by The Rat at 3:03 PM on May 9
Tight pants and park rangers pulling you over? Care to explain your presence in the park?
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 3:05 PM on May 9
Sometimes, The Rat, you need but a gentle rhetorical nudge to make your point to a fellow commenter.
Other times you need the damn Nazi sledgehammer.
You'll note I was careful to explain that I'm not expecting Hitler Youth rallies. Just trying to make Swandoggie understand that free societies don't function in quite the way he seems to believe. At least they don't if they want to function at all.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 3:08 PM on May 9
Tight pants and park rangers? hmmmm????
Max Sparber = George Michael!!!
»» Submitted by grote at 3:12 PM on May 9
I just want to take these lies and make them true somehow.
You got to give what you take, Max.
Yeah, yeah!
Well, you are writing porn scripts, Max. You can make them as true as digital video and effects can be.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 3:15 PM on May 9
Max Sparber = George Michael
I'm never going to dance again...
»» Submitted by mb@work at 3:16 PM on May 9
CHOOSE LIFE!
»» Submitted by grote at 3:20 PM on May 9
I'm never going to dance again...
Just put your tiny hand in mine...
I'm never going to dance again...
Just put your tiny hand in mine...
The new Scissor Sisters
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 3:33 PM on May 9
y'all know the pledge was written by a depression-era socialist, right?
No, the Pledge was first published in 1892 ... quite some before the Great Depression ... and was not officially recognized by Congress as the national pledge until 1945.
About the "Pledge of Allegience" [Wikipedia]
Bottom line, Swandog, what you're advocating is so far removed from democracy and a free society it makes me question whether you understand the concept. We all have the right to live our lives without threat of persecution for our beliefs. That doesn't mean people have to like them. But it certainly means people have to tolerate them unless they somewhat abridge our ability to exercise our own rights
I disagree I do not have to tolerate anyone I don't want to. The general community does not have to treat these kids with any kind of respect nor do they have to employ them. I do not have to tolerate people I can tell them what I think and I can choose to shun them if I want to and that is also protected. What you are saying is that I have an obligation to treat them with respect and I do not. Persecution you would need to define. I do not have a right to harm them but I do have a right to tell them to go fuck themselves and be rude to them if I want to.
By your logic, if you don't conform, you need to be "taught a lesson" and are "garbage." Guess what -- that's the same sort of thinking that was prevalent in Germany prior to the actual passage of laws that began the persecution of Jews in that country in the 1930s. And as a more contemporary example -- the same thinking that gets women who don't wear head scarves in Afghan villages beaten and killed. Not saying those extremes would happen here, but it's definitely a very similar line of thought
That is a red hearing. My point is this we have a constitution it protects us all. We do not live in Germany or Afghan village we live in the USA. I support thier right not to stand but I do not have to treat them well (within the law). They have conditional rights one they do not have is that others can offend them and tell them that they are garbage and not associate with them if they want to. We have the right to offend under the law.
was shamed in high school for my love of moon pies and for dancing down the hallway rather than walking. Oh, yeah and for showing up for school as an Asian kid.
Swandog: You so would've hated me in Jr. High
You don't know me cat. The first Asian I met was in 9th grade science class. Some ass hole wanted to beat him up. We were lab partners, blind leading the stupid on that on but that is a different story. Long story short they were going to jump him I went with him so they did not fuck him up and he got into a fair fight with one kid vs 5. Oh and he kicked the kids ass and was left alone. His name was gu.
»» Submitted by swandog at 3:41 PM on May 9
The new Scissor Sisters
I'm getting t-shirts made.
»» Submitted by mb@work at 3:47 PM on May 9
The general community does not have to treat these kids with any kind of respect nor do they have to employ them.
Uhh, pretty sure they do...ever hear of the EEOC?
When did you meet your first, real-live black person, swandog?
BTW, be a jerk to little kids if you want, but the real bottom line is that your freedoms cannot come at the expense of another's in this country.
I'm hearing red!
»» Submitted by wakka wakka at 3:59 PM on May 9
They have conditional rights one they do not have is that others can offend them and tell them that they are garbage and not associate with them if they want to. We have the right to offend under the law.
Sorry Swandog. What you describe is called harassment, and it too is technically illegal. I see absolutely no point to what you're advocating. What they did has no effect on anyone else. Why would you, or anyone else, feel the need to go so far out of your way to "make these kids' lives a living hell"?
At the very least, Swandog, don't forget that these are kids. Possibly kids making their very first political statement (article doesn't make that clear). What you're proposing be done to them could go one of two ways:
1) They decide that political statements are more trouble than they're worth and bow completely out of the political process
2) They decide that they may be garbage, but you're an asshole, so they take advantage of the fact that they'll be prosecuted as minors and burn your damn house down as their next political statement.
Got to accept those consequences though, right Swandog?
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:03 PM on May 9
Cat, you'll be happy to know that I know at least 3 real live asians.
And she has, like, another 13 buried in her basement!
Whoops. Wasn't supposed to talk about that, was I?
Max! Quit telling all my secrets!
Max, you can't really blame her. Once you eat one you're hungry again a couple hours later.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:11 PM on May 9
That's the exact reason Godzilla keeps attacking Tokyo.
Everything I know about the Pledge of Allegiance I learned from Red Skelton.
»» Submitted by »»» indyr at 4:17 PM on May 9
Sorry Swandog. What you describe is called harassment, and it too is technically illegal. I see absolutely no point to what you're advocating. What they did has no effect on anyone else. Why would you, or anyone else, feel the need to go so far out of your way to "make these kids' lives a living hell"?
I have a right to free speech. I can't go to their house and yell at them but I can tell them anything I want as long as it is not threatening.
2) They decide that they may be garbage, but you're an asshole, so they take advantage of the fact that they'll be prosecuted as minors and burn your damn house down as their next political statement.
Got to accept those consequences though, right Swandog?
Hummm a bit extreme but I can accept it. You seem pretty close to this.
BTW, be a jerk to little kids if you want, but the real bottom line is that your freedoms cannot come at the expense of another's in this country.
You and others seem to think that you have a right not to be offended and you don't. You also seem to think you have a right to be liked by a community and you don't. I am not advocating taking away any ones Rights away but exercising my rights to free speech and freedom of association. that is all I am saying.
»» Submitted by swandog at 4:17 PM on May 9
Alie: Good on ya'. Live Asians are good to know. And one of these days, I'll show up to a MNspeak gathering and we'll up your number closer to double digits - woo hoo!
Once you eat one you're hungry again a couple hours later.
That's what the boys in HS used to tell me.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 4:18 PM on May 9
Swandog, you haven't answered me yet!
I don't have a right to not to be offended, but you were advocating not hiring people because of their political statements, and that is against the law.
I don't have a right to not to be offended, but you were advocating not hiring people because of their political statements, and that is against the law.
Is it? (outside of civil service type jobs)
Just asking, because in 2004, there was a woman fired over her support for Kerry (this was somewhere in the south). And I thought I read that there was another woman that was fired this year because she was supporting Obama, but her boss liked Hillary.
And even if it is illegal, given the at will nature of most employment, it's probably going to be next to impossible to prove.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 4:31 PM on May 9
You and others seem to think that you have a right not to be offended and you don't. You also seem to think you have a right to be liked by a community and you don't. I am not advocating taking away any ones Rights away but exercising my rights to free speech and freedom of association. that is all I am saying.
What you're doing, Swandog, is saying that the entire community should excommunicate a couple 8th graders for what is either a political statement from a couple kids just learning about free speech, or kids just being stupid because they want to look like rebels. Given that most of us were idiots throughout puberty, I don't think a social lynching is an appropriate reaction from anyone who pretends to make a claim of being an adult. Not to mention, as a parent, if you came up to my kid repeatedly to call him garbage, I'd be serving you with a restraining order right quickly.
I'm not saying you don't have the right to not like what these kids are doing. But when you say you have the right to make their lives a living hell, you're wrong. You can say they're wrong all you want. Complain about it. Write your congressman. Grumble about it and go yell at the school board. But no one is going to agree with you that you have the right to harass children. Least of all the cops.
Besides, it may be your god-given right to be a dick. But that doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you're just looking to get the crap kicked out of you. Because in small town America, picking on someone's kids seems like a quick way to get whupped.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:36 PM on May 9
Swandog, you haven't answered me yet!
When did you meet your first, real-live black person, swandog?
Kindergarten, I was the minority in the class. I was also a northerner in a southern school during a heated busing fight in Florida.
I don't have a right to not to be offended, but you were advocating not hiring people because of their political statements, and that is against the law.
I do not have to hire you and can discriminate based on your political views as long as they are not with in the protected classes.
»» Submitted by swandog at 4:44 PM on May 9
Just asking, because in 2004, there was a woman fired over her support for Kerry (this was somewhere in the south). And I thought I read that there was another woman that was fired this year because she was supporting Obama, but her boss liked Hillary.
mnblrmkr is right. Employers can not hire or fire you for virtually any reason they want as long as it's not age, sex, color or religion (depending on the organization for that last one). However running around town telling people not to hire these kids because they're garbage is grounds for a slander suit. It's easy to prove intent to harm in that case, without a doubt.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:47 PM on May 9
What you're doing, Swandog, is saying that the entire community should excommunicate a couple 8th graders for what is either a political statement from a couple kids just learning about free speech, or kids just being stupid because they want to look like rebels.
I do not have to like the kid, I do not have to be nice to the kid and neither does the community. A restrining order would be unnesesary because I would not persue or harass the kids period.
Least of all the cops. I nver said anything about the cops that is a diffent thing altogheter and I would defend the kids if the cops messed with them.
Besides, it may be your god-given right to be a dick. But that doesn't make it a good idea. Unless you're just looking to get the crap kicked out of you. Because in small town America, picking on someone's kids seems like a quick way to get whupped.
I know I am not afraid of a fight.
»» Submitted by swandog at 4:51 PM on May 9
mnblrmkr is right. Employers can not hire or fire you for virtually any reason they want as long as it's not age, sex, color or religion (depending on the organization for that last one). However running around town telling people not to hire these kids because they're garbage is grounds for a slander suit. It's easy to prove intent to harm in that case, without a doubt
You could sue but you would not win. I would be happy to go to trial with a jury of my peers in a small town over a slander suit with these little shits as my accusers.
»» Submitted by swandog at 4:59 PM on May 9
Before The Simpsons, there was Life in Hell. This is my favorite Matt Groening version of the P of A:
I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow. And to the Republicans, for which they scam, one nacho, underpants, with licorice and jugs of wine for owls.
Bongo: "heh heh"
Teacher looms
Last panel Bongo bound and gagged at his desk.
He has two others.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 5:13 PM on May 9
Now you're just sounding like a half-cocked loon, swannie.
Wow, having just read this, I must say I am disappointed in your point of view Swandog.
Considering a child has to say "under God" is a fairly shady situation. What if the child is an atheist..... They should be forced to proclaim a god they don't believe in....
Making their life is the way to go, lol.... Torture people if they don't do what everyone else does, that is the sure way to promote individuality. Aren't you conservatives all about the individual anyway?
This whole pledge is dumb. How about learning history and civics properly instead, volunteering in the community....
»» Submitted by »»» vlado4 at 6:25 PM on May 9
You could sue but you would not win. I would be happy to go to trial with a jury of my peers in a small town over a slander suit with these little shits as my accusers.
A suit like that most likely wouldn't be tried in that small town.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 6:41 PM on May 9
Sornie, the beauty of it is that he was stationed in Japan
What's that got to do with anything? Where were you stationed?
»» Submitted by col. mustard at 6:57 PM on May 9
Hi maz!
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 7:16 PM on May 9
My point was that most military men that like to brag about their service during wartime never saw much action. That's all...no disrespect. Jeez.
Who is this maz person you mention?
»» Submitted by col. mustard at 7:56 PM on May 9
aliecat, maybe he was there when I was--my dad was a surgeon in the Army and we were stationed in Japan from '64-'68.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 8:24 PM on May 9
Isn't there something in the UCMJ about impersonating an officer, col. mustard?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 8:50 PM on May 9
Ridiculous. Wasn't Maz saying we shouldn't bother to to respond to people who post anonymously? What a surprise to discover he is a colossal hypocrite.
You don't know me cat. The first Asian I met was in 9th grade science class. Some ass hole wanted to beat him up. We were lab partners, blind leading the stupid on that on but that is a different story. Long story short they were going to jump him I went with him so they did not fuck him up and he got into a fair fight with one kid vs 5. Oh and he kicked the kids ass and was left alone. His name was gu.
Oh, Swandog. That's such as weird defensive response - "you don't know me" as I didn't accuse you of anything. I was joking about the moon pies and showing up asian - which was not directed at you whatsoever. And interestingly, I was harrassed more for what I looked like when I lived back east versus when I lived in South Dakota. Go figure. Although I did get a 3 day suspension from school for protesting confession - not good when it's a catholic high school, but that's a whole different issue.
Anyway, the comment that was directed towards you - the second part about you hating me in jr. high was more about our views of the world, not my being asian. I was the kid (garbage) who refused to stand or say my morning prayers.
It seems as if you came looking for a fight today. You came out swinging and in your statements and tone you have been begging for a fight. Everything you've been saying today is the opposite of what you said yesterday. Yesterday it was all about advocating for less school involvement in a kids life - no school has the right to tell a kid what to believe in, etc. , but today it's about these kids being garbage because they bucked the school.
I'm unclear as to what it is you truly believe. Or is it about them not believing in what you believe in, which supersedes all other believing.... or something like that.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 10:02 PM on May 9
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
By the way, it's Maz's IP. I don't know why someone who claims to be an Web designer doesn't get that people can tell whether it's him or not based on the IP.
Maz, I don't care whether you participate on MnSpeak or not. But obviously people instantly recognize you, whatever name you're using, and I always know when it's you. If you're going to flame out and leave, go ahead and leave, or stay, knowing that if you start simply trolling, you may have your comments deleted. But to storm off in a huff and then show up the very next day under a pseudonym, despite the fact that everybody obviously instantly recognizes you -- well, seriously, do you have no sense of shame?
I comment anonyously, but I don't think I'm a troll. The main reason - when I did register, someone thought it was necessary to send me pretty hateful e-mails. They used the e-mail address I only used here and referenced MNspeak convos. More annoying than anything, but didn't feel comfortable leaving my info. up.
But, there are a few peeps who know me and who can vouch for me, or at least they can tell you I'm a live asian girl who doesn't live in Alie's basement.
»» Submitted by CatNotCompletelyAnonymous at 10:08 PM on May 9
You're not a troll. Hell, Maz isn't a troll most of the time. He's just a crybaby.
I just wish Godwin would make a law about referring to yourself in the third person.
Call it the Herschel Walker Law.
When did you meet your first, real-live black person, swandog?
Says the white girl from the suburbs.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP at 9:19 AM on May 10
That is a bit of a snide question to Swandog. And the implication is pretty clear.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:43 AM on May 10
Swandog perfectly illustrates the dissonance of the right wing. He says, hey kids don't you realize people died so you can have the right to sit during the pledge? Now don't you dare exercise that right or me and sean hannity will humiliate you in every way possible.
»» Submitted by --- at 10:26 AM on May 10
»»» = registered user. click on it to see the user's profile.
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