135 Comments:
"Asad Zaman, TIZA's principal, declined to allow me to visit the school or grant me an interview. He did not respond to e-mails seeking written replies."
I think it was a huge mistake for that principal to not grant an interview and not allow Kersten into the school. I don't have a ton of sympathy for after-the-fact allegations that she got it wrong... when the school didn't make an effort to present their view.
"There are strong indications that religion plays a central role at TIZA, which is a public school financed by Minnesota taxpayers."
Whether you like Kersten or hate her... read the column. And then decide if she really deserves to be fired (not because of the body of her work, but because of this one column).
What is the line between opinion and demagoguery? Even a demagogue's speech is protected, like it or not. Katherine Kersten's speech is protected by the first amendment. Having said that, if she published a column in which she distorted facts or made claims that later turned out not to be true, she is not performing her job well, and the paper's editors should decide if they want to issue a correction, as is standard journalistic practice, and something they owe their readers. Whether or not one decides that this makes her a demagogue will doubtless be a matter of debate. If she has a pattern of this practice, then I'd say the paper should dump her, but the Strib is happy to have her stir things up because they're in such pitiful shape financially these days.
Mandy Greiling is also entitled to express her opinion about Kersten, to point out what she believes to be Kersten's distortions, and to call for her resignation. This is also speech protected by the first amendment. Again, the editors get to decide what they want to do; they decided to publish the letter.
I'm disturbed, but not surprised, that threats have been made against the school. It is disingenuous to believe there is no connection between Kersten's article and those illegal acts, but are they her responsibility? What do you think?
»» Submitted by Joanna at 3:27 PM on May 11
I totally disagree with Jason. The principal made the right choice.
Why would you want to let someone like Kersten into your school? She's got a neo-con pro-christian agenda to push, which we know is very anti-Muslim. She's been proven to use a highly selective listing of "facts" in her columns. Why give her the opportunity to seize on something and blow it out of proportion?
Furthermore, I have a hard time even believing that she was really denied an interview. I have a much easier time believing that Kersten sent off one or two badly worded emails to the Principle, and when she didn't hear back a day later she decided that she was being snubbed.
I think this column is icing on the already many layers of icing on top of the cake making the case for Kersten's dismissal. But that's one cake I am not planning on eating anytime soon, unfortunately.
Regarding the Powerline piece, if Greiling's calling out of a pseudo-bully (Kersten) is considered thuggery, I'm pro-thuggery.
I'm not re-reading it, but my very clear memory of what I read when it was initially published was thinking, "why in the world is the Strib allowing such an obviously titillating and transparently inflammatory piece to go to print?" I was of the opinion that tone of the piece wasn't merely questioning the practices of the school, it was inciting a visceral reaction in anti-Muslim readers.
»» Submitted by grote at 4:02 PM on May 11
Why would you want to let someone like Kersten into your school?
Because when you take tax money, and a columnist for the largest newspaper in the state calls or writes and says she's planning a column on your school, you should open your doors.
Whatever you think is going to happen: it's almost always going to be worse if you "decline to comment" or "refuse to return calls."
Thug lyfe!
I won't deny it, I'm a straight ridah
You don't wanna fuck with me
Got the police bustin' at me
But they can't do nuthin' to a G
They must have edited that article since the last time I read it....I clearly remember KK saying that the principal declined interviews because it was MCA time, and then she tried to claim that testing was not going on for a few weeks or something. I can see both sides of the interview question..it never looks good to not respond to someone, but I wouldn't let her in, either.
And I'm with grote. The way she talks about Muslims is completely incendiary.
»» Submitted by esquared at 6:31 PM on May 11
I just want to be clear that I don't disagree with any of the comments about the tone of her writing. However, I think people misunderstand the difference between a columnist and a reporter. If she got the facts wrong, then that should be corrected.
Of course, I think there are many conservative thinkers that would make better columnists. So I wouldn't be sad if she were gone. I just don't think these pieces are firing material.
I agree with Jason that columnists -- like reporters -- must always strive to get the facts right, IMHO. Some consider columnists a different bred than reporters, an hence above the rules set for lunch-bucket journalists like Jason. Wrong! If anything, the standards should be even higher for the privlege to put your opinion, under byline, in the news.
Kerten IS a lousy writer, and there are certainly better local conservative voices out there now -- Lileks, David Strom and even Craig Westover come to mind. Hell, there are even better conservative commentors on MNspeak.
The Strib will no doubt be making more cuts soon. Cut of the dead wood this time, eh guys?
»» Submitted by jpbobnotloggedin at 7:06 PM on May 11
Hell, there are even better conservative commentors [than KK] on MNspeak.
ZING. Shit, though, you're right. Ouch.
»» Submitted by »»» s4xton at 9:45 PM on May 11
With all due respect to the Congresswoman, how in depth was her walkabout? Did she just drop in unannounced?
I guess it's not just the Islamic aspect of this story that bothered me. What about these other "charter schools" that lease space from churches? How much tax money do they get? What up with that? That's kind of weird.
And as far as the death threats go? Really? How many? How serious? Like worse than the normal bomb threats every school gets? "Endangering the children" seems like a pretty easy stand-by to use on a writer asking difficult questions. And we're really rooting for the Strib to fire more writers? I guess I didn't find the tone of the column that "incendiary." Why? The head scarves thing? You know who sounds incendiary? MAS-MN. Jeepers. That's some hot Wahhabi.
»» Submitted by stevemarsh at 12:38 AM on May 11
"Katherine Kersten" could operate as the name under which a collective of MnSpeak conservative commentors will write. The Strib can leave her picture up for the column. It'll be like Betty Crocker. (Only looking more withered and angry.)
While I understand the difference between a journalist and a columnist, what obligations does a paper have in regard to columnists ? Why have them at all?
I really don't have an answer and I'm interested in everyone else's take.
Also, I love Google Ads on MNSpeak.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 6:00 AM on May 12
"Katherine Kersten" could operate as the name under which a collective of MnSpeak conservative commentors will write.
We don't do collectives.
»» Submitted by the artist formerly known as at 7:45 AM on May 12
I guess it's not just the Islamic aspect of this story that bothered me. What about these other "charter schools" that lease space from churches? How much tax money do they get? What up with that? That's kind of weird.
That's a fair question. One that would have been much more interesting for KK to address. The problem is, she doesn't really have a problem with state funded fundamentalist "Christian" schools.
And as far as the death threats go? Really? How many? How serious? Like worse than the normal bomb threats every school gets?
Serious enough that the IGH PD stepped up patrols around the school and opened an investigation. Did I miss the followups on the status of that?
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 8:52 AM on May 12
And speaking of local conservatives who suck, I can't believe Teucer talked me into signing up for a gun safety course that involves meeting Jason Lewis and getting a free Jason Lewis Juggernaut t-shirt. I feel dirty.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 9:42 AM on May 12
After working for a school district doing their communications (crisis and otherwise), I've got to agree with Jason. Whether it was test time or not, as a school you open those doors nice and wide and put on a dog and pony show for the press when they want to come in. Nothing gets the viewer/readership more riled up than a perceived threat to kids. TV reporters are especially fond of school stories (pets and kids, right Jason?), but columnists with an axe to grind, like Kersten, are in the mix too.
Had they let Kersten in and shown her around so she could see they had nothing to hide they would've had a much more solid standing when complaining about the picture painted in the column.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 9:47 AM on May 12
Had they let Kersten in and shown her around so she could see they had nothing to hide they would've had a much more solid standing when complaining about the picture painted in the column.
She would have seen what she wanted to see, and would have written the exact same column (minus the whining "They wouldn't talk to me"). Except now, she would have their own words and actions to take out of context for her column.
The school was in a lose-lose situation the moment she set her sights on it.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 9:53 AM on May 12
She would have seen what she wanted to see, and would have written the exact same column (minus the whining "They wouldn't talk to me"). Except now, she would have their own words and actions to take out of context for her column.
She still has their own words and actions, except instead of things they can explain, she has a fairly lame excuse, provided by them, for keeping her out of the school. The one real watchword in public relations is that there is virtually no situation where you deny access. It just makes you look guilty.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 10:07 AM on May 12
You know what I want to read? The real story on TIZA written by a real investigative journalist, not a hack with an ax to grind. Maybe it would turn out there is real misuse of public funds here (and at other charter schools). Maybe not. But we'll never know because of the hatchet job Kersten did, turning it into a hot potato.
Or, maybe the Strib's editors did decide there was nothing worthy of an investigative article there -- and, if so, why the hell did they run her column?
(Also: It would be a pretty scary world if a letter from a gov't representative could get a journalist -- even a "journalist" -- fired. And, no way would I have let Kersten into my school, even though I would say that in every other instance "no comment" is the wrong route.)
»» Submitted by reader at 10:12 AM on May 12
She still has their own words and actions,...
She has a second hand account of their words and actions, from potentially biased source (whose connections she failed to disclose in her column).
As I said, the school was in a lose/lose situation.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:14 AM on May 12
While I understand why the professional journalists have focused on the idea that the school should have given her an interview, that doesn't actually address the question of whether Kersten's statements were accurate or not. If they were not accurate, as Greiling claims, and her innuendos are still be repeated as if they were facts, then it's not unreasonable to say she's the one who is at fault, not the principal.
Rich and Jason, if a source refuses to talk to you, don't you try to find alternative sources of information? you might gripe about how it makes it harder for you, but you wouldn't just make stuff up, would you?
»» Submitted by Joanna at 10:15 AM on May 12
OK...Seems she wrote about this in three separate columns. I went back and found the piece that bugged me.
TIZA is skirting the law by operating what is essentially an Islamic school at taxpayer expense. The Department of Education has failed to provide the oversight necessary to catch these illegalities, and appears to lack the tools to do so. In addition, there's a double standard at work here -- if TIZA were a Christian school, it would likely be gone in a heartbeat.
I call bullshit. That final sentence is not only unneccesary to the column, it is a complete fabrication by Kersten. Editorializing is one thing, but making shit up in the hope that it will prompt her readers to take to the streets with pitchforks and torches and join the witch hunt is irresponsible columnism.
»» Submitted by grote at 10:19 AM on May 12
And speaking of local conservatives who suck, I can't believe Teucer talked me into signing up for a gun safety course that involves meeting Jason Lewis
Be sure to bow and kiss his ring, bixby. If Condi Rice can do it, so can you.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 10:24 AM on May 12
1. I don't think she should be fired over this article but I think it's poorly written and she should be fired for being a poor writer.
2. I enjoyed her conspiracy theory linking of things. It was like the Kevin Bacon game.
3. What would have helped this piece suck less is if KK had specifically addressed the holes in her piece in terms of what information that only the principal could have provided her with.
4. And why did she not try harder to find parents or other administrators to speak to about the school.?
5. She has a very large head - her likeness should be part of a bobblehead give away.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 10:28 AM on May 12
Rich and Jason, if a source refuses to talk to you, don't you try to find alternative sources of information? you might gripe about how it makes it harder for you, but you wouldn't just make stuff up, would you?
I'm actually not a journalist unless you count what I do at The Rake as journalism. I work in public relations. Prior to the agency I work at now I was responsible for crisis communications and PR for Saint Paul Public Schools. I dealt with journalists who wanted to sensationalize and twist situations happening in the schools every day. And in every single case I had much more to work with when I provided access. The situations where my recommendations were overruled and reporters were barred invariably spiraled into full on clusterf*cks.
Of course you know Kersten has an agenda. Of course she'll twist what she sees. But if you let her in, you can respond with a statement that puts the misunderstanding squarely in her court. Here she can simply say she wasn't given access so it's the school's own fault they looked bad.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 10:33 AM on May 12
grote, you could work for the Strib! Send them a reader's column. You can start with this Greiling's counter-assertions:
"the school, like other charter schools in Minnesota that lease space from churches, is a separate entity. It does comply with federal law that requires all schools to accommodate a student's right to practice his or her religion."
What other charter schools lease space from religious organizations? how many charter schools lease space from Christian organizations?
It shouldn't be hard to find the federal law in question.
Rich? Jason? chuck? stevemarsh? any other media types lurking here?
»» Submitted by Joanna at 10:33 AM on May 12
It would be a pretty scary world if a letter from a gov't representative could get a journalist -- even a "journalist" -- fired.
I think that's the nub of it, right there. When something like this happens, the Strib ought to dig in and stand with its people, no matter who it is. We'll see if the paper does it.
I don't know the atmosphere of the editorial department and whether Kersten is treated as some kind of necessary evil. But if this can get her canned, they all ought to worry.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 10:34 AM on May 12
You know what I want to read? The real story on TIZA written by a real investigative journalist, not a hack with an ax to grind. Maybe it would turn out there is real misuse of public funds here (and at other charter schools).
True. The misuse of public funds though, as Kersten would lead us to believe, is not a misuse at all. Minnesota allows for the seemingly inappropriate partnerships of religion and public schools. This is what I understand: Technically, Charter schools can't own the buildings they use for school - why I don't know. But, there's a loophole that allows the Charter to set up a non-profit and then the non-profit owns the building. A number of schools use this loophole - don't have to have voters vote on passing it, and they can then be affiliated with a church or whomever without a lot of scrutiny. Kersten pointing out the "muslim" school was just pot stirring - which she likes to do. She also overlooks that this is a failry common practice. Was she incendiary? My first read was that I didn't think so, although I thought that she was clearly writing from a prejudice POV. But most writers do.
That said, columnists don't need "sources" as they are opinion or "slice of life" writers. Kersten did talk to a women who was in the school. Her view might have been skewed, but it was what this women saw. And as biased as Kersten's writing was/is, she has the right to express her opinion.
Should she be fired? No. As much as I hate to even say that beyond underneath my breath through pursed lips.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 10:35 AM on May 12
I could tell that KK was really on the leash when she wrote that article. It borders on straight-up, unbaised journalism. Sure, she didn't do much of a background on the informant (a right-wing evangelist of sorts), and she didn't get much counter-point, but she also didn't report on too much that didn't really happened.
The things in the article happened.
And I really dislike people tinkering with the establishment clause. It's already being hammered under this administration. Folks like Mac Hammond are gunning for it with million-dollar assaults. Yet it's the key to our diversity and should not be weakened.
Any religion sneaking into a school needs to be aggressively scrutinized.
»» Submitted by matt9k at 10:37 AM on May 12
Also, Charter Schools cannot be in vacant school buildings, IIRC. This forces them to use church buildings. Also, some of the older inner city churches have a lot of extra space due to decreased attendance. Leasing space is great income for struggling churches.
My church has had an Alternative School in the basement for over 15 years. Aside from leasing space, we have nothing to do with the school, and they have nothing to do with us. We also lease space to another church, a couple individuals, and during the U strike, AFSCME.
»» Submitted by »»» kc! at 10:43 AM on May 12
Thanks, Rick. I do agree with you that you have more problems than not if you don't agree to an interview, but give KK's track record on issues relating to Muslims, I can understand why the school didn't want to talk to her. She has a track record.
For folks who are interested, ere's the relevant page from the Department of Justice on the first amendment and freedom of religion as it currently stands in schools.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 10:43 AM on May 12
Oops, sorry, I meant Rick, not Rick.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 10:45 AM on May 12
richhhhhh, rich. I blame the coffe.
»» Submitted by Joanna at 10:46 AM on May 12
Oh, I certainly understand why they wouldn't want to. I'm just saying that, had they been more savvy, they would've bitten the bullet and invited her in.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 10:48 AM on May 12
But who would replace Kersten has a whipping "girl"?
»» Submitted by Cranky in NE at 11:39 AM on May 12
Greiling is apparently anti-1st Amendment.
And clueless.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 12:14 PM on May 12
Bud apparently is unaware that the Strib can fire anyone they want for any reason without it being a violation of the first amendment. Greiling isn't calling for the US Government to legislate against Kersten.
She is calling on the press to fire someone for espousing an opinion (truth) other than her own (pro-Muslim, pro-jihad and anti-American).
Therefore, Greiling is quite clearly anti- 1st Amendment, or to simplify for you, anti-free speech.
»» Submitted by bud jr at 12:23 PM on May 12
bud raises an interesting point. generally, I'm of the opinion that you should be free at all times to exercise your 1st amendment rights, unless you use them to stifle those same rights of others. I'm also of the opinion that your employer has the right to fire you for saying stupid and harmful shit. But here, we're talking about an elected governmental official urging a business to fire an employee over a free speech issue. shades of gray. dark gray. Depending on Greiling's ability to influence, a case could be made that this is a de facto violation of her rights. Probably not a strong case.
doesn't make kersten (or bud) less of an asshole, but does raise a valid point.
»» Submitted by grote at 12:24 PM on May 12
But I'm an "asshole" for raising it?
Nice!
The tolerance and inclusiveness of liberals is so...heartwarming!
»» Submitted by bud jr at 12:26 PM on May 12
Unless you actually think the Strib will feel compelled to fire Kersten based exclusively on Greiling's position, I don't think there is much of a case for 1st amendment rights violations here. Deoes she really have so much power that the Strib would feel they have no other option than to can Kersten?
And you're agreeing with a guy who makes his case by apparently arguing that anyone who disagrees with Kersten is "pro-Muslim, pro-jihad and anti-American," Geoff.
Good lord, Bud. She's calling on the Strib, her employer, not the press.
And the school isn't pro-jihad or anti-american because they happen to have muslim students.
What she wrote may have been true to a degree, but it was certainly tainted to put the school in not a fair light.
And your response is what is wrong with this country and why people are outraged. She knew it would get those riled up, and though she is not responsible for the actions of others, she certainly brings out the ugliness and hate to which you subscribe.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 12:28 PM on May 12
Deoes she really have so much power that the Strib would feel they have no other option than to can Kersten?
Well, she is the token conservative being given column space. I suppose she has some value in that she prevents the remaining conservatives who still read their rag from leaving altogether.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:30 PM on May 12
bud...I'm not a liberal. and you are most assuredly an asshole, and a disingenuous one at that. there's a whole history of it on this here website. don't sit there and pretend this is your first evar post on MNSpeak.
»» Submitted by grote at 12:34 PM on May 12
That paints such an unflattering portrait of conservatives, Maz. I don't read the news only because they include a token of my worldview, no matter how badly researched, blindly partisan, and venemous. I read the newspaper because I want to know what's going on the world.
espousing an opinion (truth)
I like that thought that in bud's world opinion = truth.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 12:35 PM on May 12
I'm not sure who took over Maz' IP address, but whomever it is seems to be just cutting and pasting his old comments on to MNSpeak.
»» Submitted by grote at 12:36 PM on May 12
grote, it's always just been Hotkeys
KK post F7
Anything that can be related to economics F3.
Native Americas Ctl Alt W.
and so on.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 12:39 PM on May 12
I still don't understand why you guys can't grasp the idea of principle.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:42 PM on May 12
What principle are yoy talking about? The principle that it's not okay to demonize an educational program merely because Muslims are the boogieman du jour?
That's not the principle at issue. The principle at issue is, if you're going to deny taxpayer support for schools that engage in religious activities at that school, then the rule should apply to ALL schools. Pretty simple, really.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:45 PM on May 12
I still don't understand. It doesn't sound like anything is being allowed at this school that is denied elsewhere. Can you be specific in your criticisms?
Another principle at issue is that the leader of a school is called the principal, not the principle.
"I put the pal in principal!"
»» Submitted by esquared at 12:50 PM on May 12
Her column is full of examples. If you choose to not believe them, that's your right. I choose to believe her.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:51 PM on May 12
The Minneapolis public school system operated a grade school at Central Lutheran Church into the late '90s. Can't recall how many grades were there but several of our radio station station employees volunteered as reading tutors for 2nd graders there as part of our "Reading 103" program from 1995-1997.
But I'm an "asshole" for raising it?
Nice!
The tolerance and inclusiveness of liberals is so...heartwarming!
It's not that you raised it, it's the manner in which you do so.
You're pretty liberal with the hate speech around here and your constant hiding behind the skirts of "liberals are trying to keep me quiet" is chicken shit at best.
People have a go at you because you consistently throw out ignorant and hateful comments.
Maz: We do get the principle at issue here and the issue is that there isn't an issue - or at least the issue to which you refer. Because they allow students time for prayer and it looks different than what we are accustomed to doesn't mean that they aren't following the rules that were set.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 12:53 PM on May 12
Well she did say that Grand Theft Auto was going to turn all our kids into Nazi's so it's not like she doesn't have any credibility...
»» Submitted by u have a point there at 12:53 PM on May 12
totally agree with maz...which is why I anxiously await Kersten's next piece, an expose on Christian-oriented charter schools using tax money.
you guys are always claiming principle, but you only apply it where it suits you.
»» Submitted by grote at 12:53 PM on May 12
I'm sorry, but that's not being specific. Did you actually read the article, and did you read Grieling's response?
It's not about who we choose to believe because it fits our agenda. There actually are real facts out there, Maz, and the complaint is that Kersten did a pretty poor job of finding them, and then published a series of poorly sourced quotes to villify a school.
If you choose to not believe them, that's your right. I choose to believe her.
I choose to not believe anyone that doesn't believe in the Constitution.
KK has shown an abhorance to the equal protection clause.
»» Submitted by Mpls Simpleton at 12:55 PM on May 12
Yes, Grote. And I'll be standing by with oxygen as you start to turn into a big blueberry from holding your breath.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 12:56 PM on May 12
Well she did say that Grand Theft Auto was going to turn all our kids into Nazi's so it's not like she doesn't have any credibility...
She didn't actually say that. So what's that say about your credibility?
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:56 PM on May 12
I'm turning into a big blueberry from overeating and taking colloidal silver, so you'll need to use a different set of cues.
»» Submitted by grote at 12:58 PM on May 12
Because they allow students time for prayer and it looks different than what we are accustomed to doesn't mean that they aren't following the rules that were set.
If teachers or imams led the students in prayer, which is alleged, you have your violation.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 12:59 PM on May 12
It's true, she didn't say nazis. Just hostile sociopaths who fight and argue with their teachers.
but if we don't have hostile sociopaths, who will listen to Conservative Talk Radio. She's undercutting her very constituency.
»» Submitted by grote at 1:03 PM on May 12
Yes. If prayer is being led in the schools by teachers or school officials, that should be stopped. I agree now, and will continue to agree when the same subject comes up concerning Christian prayer in school, when I expect to see many of the people who are outraged at this school suddenly completely reverse their position.
When did grote become the David Mamet of MNspeak?
I am a huge supporter of free speech. Have dedicated a huge portion of my personal and professional life to issues surrounding it.
Yet...I would not give 2 shits if KK was unfairly silenced or given the axe for this or any other reason. What she and O'Reilly and Limbaugh and Jason Lewis and all the rest of them do is simply to shill the party line talking points. When one falls another is installed to take its place. They're like cylons. The bad ones. The ones who need to be boxed.
And to call the Strib "Liberal" is a joke...they now have 2 paid Neocon Boot Licking Columnists to the erstwhile free thinker Nick Coleman and if you don't see the conservative bent they take on most every issue you simply have not been reading.
I haven't really read any of KK's recent columns and I haven't really read what issues are at stake in this case but I know enough about KK to know that I hope she gets punished. Unfairly. Fairly. Doesn't matter. FRAK HER!
I agree now, and will continue to agree when the same subject comes up concerning Christian prayer in school, when I expect to see many of the people who are outraged at this school suddenly completely reverse their position.
You won't hear that from me. I think it's sad that the state has removed relgious activity from public schools, actually. I grew up with religion openly practiced in school, from christian religious instruction on tuesday morning, to singing sacred pieces in choir, to having an actual two-week school breaks called "christmas" and "easter" breaks.
I grew up in a kinder, gentler society with far less crudity and vulgarity, and a lot more civility and mutual respect. Some credit the presence of religion in the schools for the lower dropout rate, delinquency rate, violence, and every other pathology that is common in today's schools.
Am I arguing for the return of religion to public schools? No, but I can still lament what its absence has meant to education and society in general. And I'm not a religious person, as you probably know. The only time I go to church is when I go to a wedding.
»» Submitted by someone at maz' IP address at 1:14 PM on May 12
I grew up in a kinder, gentler society with far less crudity and vulgarity, and a lot more civility and mutual respect. Some credit the presence of religion in the schools for the lower dropout rate, delinquency rate, violence, and every other pathology that is common in today's schools.
Ah, those glorious days of yore. And the best thing is, the further back in time you go, the better things get. Cavemen were princes among men, who greeted each other with a manly but affectionate kiss and blushed a startling red whenever they heard a discouraging word.
The paper can do what they want. If they do not like what she said then fire her. It is a bad precedent but she has no protection under the law. I think was had a similar debate about standing up for the pledge. This is the same thing. She can say what she wants but she will have to live with the consequences of her statements. It does show how some politicians are so PC and "sensitive". All I know is we pay way to much money to the schools and that in the end is the real problem. Cut the funding cut the schools cut this bullshit out.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:18 PM on May 12
Yes, the problem is that politicians are PC and sentitive, and not that threats were made against the school.
Maybe instead of firing her, the Strib should just send her to a remedial journalism class?
I know -- a swift kick to the nads will at least signal whether you're still with us, grote. As far as the continued breathing, you're on your own after that.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 1:27 PM on May 12
yep. swandog's post(s) prove that any money spent "edumacating' him was wasted.
»» Submitted by teacher at 1:30 PM on May 12
Mock the comment, not the man, please.
Yes, the problem is that politicians are PC and sentitive, and not that threats were made against the school.
That is possible but I have not seen anything that documents this other than some allegations by individuals that have an agenda but I could be wrong. I threats were made catch them and prosecute the person that made them.
Are charter schools pair for through a referendum process or are they just given state money I really do not know. All I know is we spend way to much and get very little out of our schools. Johny can't read but he knows how push his legal agenda on the rest of us, he had every right to do it but the consequence in the end, I hope is cutting the budget for schools.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:31 PM on May 12
I did a little research, and LOTS of charter schools are run by religious organizations. I had no idea. Particularly our Christian Private Colleges. St. Thomas, Augsberg, North Central Bible College and Bethel all have charter schools.
So, I'd like to see a review of all the religiously connected charter schools, including the Islamic ones.
Oh, and I hate charter schools, all of them.
»» Submitted by »»» kc! at 1:32 PM on May 12
I did a little research, and LOTS of charter schools are run by religious organizations. I had no idea. Particularly our Christian Private Colleges. St. Thomas, Augsberg, North Central Bible College and Bethel all have charter schools.
So, I'd like to see a review of all the religiously connected charter schools, including the Islamic ones.
That is where the conservatives fall short in their argument. If one religion gets one they all get one. Cut all of their funding.
»» Submitted by swandog at 1:34 PM on May 12
The lines in charter schools are actually blurred rather often. I had to deal with the fallout from some of it while working at SPPS, because the district sponsored some charters. And while I think Kersten's handlers need to smack her upside the head with the definition of credible sources, I don't think this is a firing offense. It's the folks out there who are vilifying the school and are using her to do it that need to be reprimanded. Shades of Khalil Gibran in NYC.
Slightly off topic, but what I'd actually like to see is a critical examination of charter schools and see just how effective they are overall. A ridiculous amount of money gets thrown down the tubes when a teacher has a dream about a school that caters to X, but lacks the business sense to do much more than lose the money the state provides.
Harsh, but I hear it quite often -- charters have done a great deal to undermine public education while not providing much in return. I'm wondering just how true it is.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 1:34 PM on May 12
Oh, and I hate charter schools, all of them.
I hear all bureaucrats are required to take that position. Something about charter schools being outside your control or something, right?
»» Submitted by mazaroti at 1:36 PM on May 12
Some credit the presence of religion in the schools for the lower dropout rate, delinquency rate, violence, and every other pathology that is common in today's schools.
When did we have lower dropout rates? Seriously, high school graduation rates have been climbing steadily since the 1940s with 80% of the over 25 population having graduated from high school in the 2000 census. But dropout rate is a harder stat to nail down that educational attainment, since some dropout for a time and then return to education. There is not a national standard and the data reporting is very scattered.
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 1:36 PM on May 12
What does it tell you about the government school system that they actually have a spin doctor on their payroll?
»» Submitted by mazaroony at 1:38 PM on May 12
What does it tell you about the government school system that they actually have a spin doctor on their payroll?
The best defense is a good offense?
»» Submitted by Lunch! at 1:39 PM on May 12
Rich: I agree, but it seems to me that if they tightened up the way the language is written, it wouldn't leave a lot for interpretation and maybe fewer "I really want to start my own school, but I have no idea how to run it" would come into play.
The way the law is written, it's squishy at best and leaves a lot of room for interpretation which MN allows.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 1:40 PM on May 12
What does it tell you about the government school system that they actually have a spin doctor on their payroll?
Maz, private schools have PR/communications staff too. Given schools' role in the community, they have to. Or don't you want to know about the events at your kids' school, if something happens to someone on the playground, someone brings a weapon to school, or if a crime occurs in the neighborhood?
Not to mention, schools get a very unfair shake in the media when something bad happens. Someone needs to be a watchdog to help them tell their stories. It's very rare that a school is truly at fault for an incident. 9 times out of 10 it's spurred by problems at home, or the parents are telling a very skewed version of the truth.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 1:42 PM on May 12
Rich: I agree, but it seems to me that if they tightened up the way the language is written, it wouldn't leave a lot for interpretation and maybe fewer "I really want to start my own school, but I have no idea how to run it" would come into play.
I think it'd be a hard law to tighten, to say the least. The point of it is to give educational choice. So tightening down on it would trigger one heck of an outcry from the charter advocates.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 1:44 PM on May 12
Yeah, I know. And I don't know what the solution is, but the way it is now, leaves it open for abuse.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 1:46 PM on May 12
I have done some work with some area schools on asthma, cleaner school buses, etc.
During PR for a school is tough work, and I will say the school systems do seam to have a "circle the wagons" mentality. Without naming names, I know of a communications director from a very large local school system who was told by their bosses that she could no longer talk to the Star Tribune writer with the education beat (yet they still expected positive media coverage in the Strib).
I had to step in and play Cyrano between the two parties. That's doing PR the hard way!
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 1:51 PM on May 12
(Laughing at the contortions the PCers attempt as they ignore the facts of this story).
»» Submitted by bud jr at 1:54 PM on May 12
I hear all bureaucrats are required to take that position. Something about charter schools being outside your control or something, right?
Actually, some of the charter schools are run by the Department of Education. And the charter schools are still supposed to follow the rules set by the State.
»» Submitted by »»» kc! at 1:57 PM on May 12
have PR/communications staff too. Given schools' role in the community, they have to. Or don't you want to know about the events at your kids' school, if something happens to someone on the playground, someone brings a weapon to school, or if a crime occurs in the neighborhood?
Another reason to cut funding. A PR firm implies something to spin, give that we pay for the school we should be told what we want, when we want, short of privacy issues with individual students. The whole educational process and institution is a scam. The taxpayers are paying for some kid to pray on our dime, wonderful. Oh and I do not care who they are praying to bullshit is bullshit.
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:00 PM on May 12
(Laughing at the contortions the PCers attempt as they ignore the facts of this story).
And those facts would be what?
Why are you even asking?
In bud's world, it is a terrorist training cell.
A PR firm implies something to spin, give that we pay for the school we should be told what we want, when we want, short of privacy issues with individual students.
Almost every company, state funded or not, has a communications department. It has nothing to do with hiding infomation, rather ensuring consistency of information being released to the public. Frankly, I'm somewhat less concerned about what schools may be "hiding" than big corporations.
Oh, Alie. Now I have to ask you to join grote in the don't hold your breath corner.
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 2:08 PM on May 12
Why are you even asking?
I know, I just like poking the crazy little badger.
Another reason to cut funding. A PR firm implies something to spin, give that we pay for the school we should be told what we want, when we want, short of privacy issues with individual students.
Actually it can just mean having someone as the point contact person for information. Otherwise you end up with every individual teacher or principal dealing with all these inquiries, taking time away from their real job.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 2:10 PM on May 12
Actually it can just mean having someone as the point contact person for information. Otherwise you end up with every individual teacher or principal dealing with all these inquiries, taking time away from their real job.
Not only that, but the communications person is often the squeaky little voice advocating for transparency. PR isn't all spin, people. The amazing thing about good PR is that it's often actually about getting the truth out there.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 2:13 PM on May 12
The amazing thing about good PR is that it's often actually about getting the truth out there.
HA Ha! Talk about yer spin.
»» Submitted by mazaruty at 2:22 PM on May 12
About 75% (or more) of the news you see, hear or read (all mediums) started with one of us communications people. Newies sometimes like us, sometimes loathe us, but always need us -- just as we need them, to tell our stories to others.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 2:26 PM on May 12
There sometimes is reason for the loathing too. Some communications folks are under orders to obfuscate. Others just make life entirely too difficult for reporters. I view my job as one part advocacy, 2 parts facilitation. If I'm not making a reporter's life easier, I'm not doing my job right.
Of course, then I go home write profanity-laced tirades at The Rake. So maybe I'm not the norm.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 2:31 PM on May 12
Almost every company, state funded or not, has a communications department. It has nothing to do with hiding infomation, rather ensuring consistency of information being released to the public. Frankly, I'm somewhat less concerned about what schools may be "hiding" than big corporations
None of them can be trusted. If money is available then mis-infomration will follow. PR means that someone has to spin a story to fit their organizations needs. They don't tell you both sides of any story only the one they want you to hear. A lie is a lie unless you are a PR person then it is a story.
»» Submitted by swandog at 2:41 PM on May 12
Ditto. I try to serve as "translator" and bridge between the media and the bosses. If you think that a translator isn't need, you don't know many bosses. Many can't speak in soundbytes to save their lives -- others just can't let go of jargon and industryspeak, others just freeze, or say they "hate the media" and won't participate, because feel they they got burned in an interview 12 years ago.
I try to respect the newsies time and tight deadlines, and don't waste their time with stuff that isn't worth of ink, airtime or pixels.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 2:42 PM on May 12
swandog is not a jerk, a halfwit and a troll!
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 2:44 PM on May 12
The ALAMN will be hearing from my lawyers.
»» Submitted by jerky, half wit troll at 2:51 PM on May 12
None of them can be trusted. If money is available then mis-infomration will follow. PR means that someone has to spin a story to fit their organizations needs. They don't tell you both sides of any story only the one they want you to hear. A lie is a lie unless you are a PR person then it is a story.
Interesting theory. Right up there with the Jewish porn dragon.
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 2:58 PM on May 12
This what I want you to hear: Give me a bajillion dahlers. Give me a bajillion dahlers.
Is it working? No.
I thought a lie was a lie unless you were my sister - who calls them stretches not lies. Maybe she should be in PR rather than a teacher. HA!
»» Submitted by Cat_ at 3:22 PM on May 12
If teachers or imams led the students in prayer, which is alleged, you have your violation.dixit
It is not a violation of Federal law to pray in a public school; it is a violation of Federal law to oblige ALL students to participate in specific religious observances. So if this school uses the pubic address system to lead prayers, whether The Lord's Prayer or any other, I think it would be legitimate to object to that as not in compliance with Federal law.
However, the page I linked to above, cites a specific case in which Muslims students won the right to be able to have a place to pray on school grounds (just not the cafeteria) when it was time for them to pray, because it is against Federal law to prevent students from praying.
"Prayer in the schools" is shorthand for "obligatory/school sponsored prayer in the schools" not "you are not allowed to pray in school".
»» Submitted by Joana at 3:27 PM on May 12
I'll admit PR has an ugly side. Here it is, standing next to the Ag Commissioner.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 3:31 PM on May 12
Oh, the horror! THE HORROR!
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:57 PM on May 12
We got to pray just to make it today.
»» Submitted by MC Hammer at 5:06 PM on May 12
Jason Lewis and all the rest of them do is simply to shill the party line talking points.
Jason Lewis probably does more damage to Republicans than he does to Democrats simply because he doesn't shill the party talking points. Most of his criticism is aimed at moderate Republicans who don't pass his purity test.
He's one of those people who you want on the air. He's a useful idiot.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 5:28 PM on May 12
Man, I can't wait until my gun safety course featuring Jason Lewis this Sunday.
It's going to be the highlight of my hungover day.
And by highlight I mean "things most likely to make me cry".
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 5:33 PM on May 12
You'll come out a right-winger. Firearms combined with conservative dogma have a high success rate.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 5:55 PM on May 12
Jason Lewis is a conservative. I'm a conservative. Since Ronaldo Maximus, the republican party has been the party of conservatism. But when members of the republican party stray from conservatism or when the party's nominee is not a conservative, we feel no obligation to support that party.
»» Submitted by mazaroti at 6:30 PM on May 12
I'm not interested in acts of thuggery, just acts of buggery.
»» Submitted by Larry Craig at 6:43 PM on May 12
Near Jason Lewis, in the vicinity of lethal weapons? Sounds like a convenient time to "forget" the gun safety commandments...
Here's a timely religion of peace update from St. Cloud. Have a working companion animal? Don't bring it near the Muslims:
http://www.sctimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080512/NEWS01/105120058
»» Submitted by Qu'rap on the Qu'ran at 8:08 PM on May 12
You fail to mention this:
Hurd trained at Talahi Community School and Tech. He said his experience at Talahi was good. The Somali students there warmed to the dog and eventually petted him using paper to keep their hands off his fur, Hurd said.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 8:48 PM on May 12
Yes, certainly, except for the ones who wanted to kill his dog out of religious doctrine.
Remember, companion dogs are an offense to diversity. You have a companion dog? Youre the problem, you need to build a bridge to understanding.
»» Submitted by I poop on Qu'rans at 9:08 PM on May 12
But when members of the republican party stray from conservatism or when the party's nominee is not a conservative, we feel no obligation to support that party.
Keep talkin' Mazaroti.
For all your talk about the importance of loyalty, I figured it was fleeting and rather fickle. And conservatives are most often impatient. Incremental change is difficult to run out on a business plan.
We'll make a Cat Person out of you, yet.
»» Submitted by The Rat at 9:17 PM on May 12
seems our new pal hails from st. cloud, minnesota's capitol of religious, ethnic and racial tolerance
»» Submitted by grote at 9:19 PM on May 12
"Our religion is not allowed to kill a dog," Muhumed said. "That is forbidden."
More. More. More.
But, by all means, crap on a religious text you don't understand without bothering to read the article you're using to condemn them or doing any addtitional research. God knows Google is a hard tool to use.
Geez, where was Kitty K when I had to sit in study hall in my public junior high while the Christian kids went to Wednesday school during the school day? We literally didn't have our regularly scheduled classes and had to sit there like the shameful heathens we were, while the Lutherans and Catholics took district buses to and from church.
Oh wait, she wouldn't have cared.
»» Submitted by yepnope at 9:37 PM on May 12
Geez, where was Kitty K when I had to sit in study hall in my public junior high while the Christian kids went to Wednesday school during the school day?
ummmm....Wednesday school?
»» Submitted by grote at 9:56 PM on May 12
Hey, I'm like 7,000 years younger than her, if her picture is any indication.
»» Submitted by yepnope at 10:01 PM on May 12
For all your talk about the importance of loyalty, I figured it was fleeting and rather fickle. And conservatives are most often impatient.
Loyalty is to conservative principles, not to republican politicians or the republican party.
We'll make a Cat Person out of you, yet.
HA! No franken way.
»» Submitted by mazarumba at 10:11 PM on May 12
Wednesday school? Seriously? Everyone I knew who had "Wednesday school" went to confirmation class at night. The only people who went to "Wednesday school" were going to the speech therapist (and that stopped after 3rd grade). Strange.
Also, the ads on this post are awesome.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 10:11 PM on May 12
Yes, certainly, except for the ones who wanted to kill his dog out of religious doctrine.
How is this any different than the fundamentalist anti-abortionists that want to kill doctors?
Any religion is going to have it's intolerant, even violent bigots.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:21 PM on May 12
Never heard of Wednesday school, but when I was in school, Wednesday was "church night" (for confirmation, church youth groups, church choir, etc.) and no school activities were allowed to be scheduled, nor were any practices (sports/drama/music etc.) allowed to run past 4:45 PM.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:28 PM on May 12
The only people who went to "Wednesday school" were going to the speech therapist (and that stopped after 3rd grade). Strange.
I don't think I even started that until the 3rd grade.
»» Submitted by »»» mnblrmkr at 10:29 PM on May 12
Yeah, usually it's supposed to be after school. Our district actually stopped school for it. Amazing, really.
»» Submitted by yepnope at 11:31 PM on May 12
»»» = registered user. click on it to see the user's profile.
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