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»ARCHIVED TALK
MNSpeak: Registration Required
Posted June 28, 2008
Hi all. Max and I decided to start requiring registration for comments. We've been hesitant to take this step, but trolls were getting to be too big of an issue. To protect the privacy of registered users, I removed email addresses from public profiles. If you'd like your email address displayed, include it in your bio. Sign up here. Peace.
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313 Comments:
cheers!
»» Submitted by »»» Kal at 5:08 PM on June 28
I think you should have featured comments like they do on the Star Tribune.
»» Submitted by »»» s4xton at 5:16 PM on June 28
I guess this means no more wine, no more cramped bowels and no more excitement for meatloaf.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 5:18 PM on June 28
No more mb at work. :(
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 5:28 PM on June 28
out of topic - sorry
who just cam back from Loring Park and is absolutely appauld by the price of the tickets?
»» Submitted by »»» Kal at 5:29 PM on June 28
I have to quick go register as "Just Sayin'" so I can use that sometimes.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 5:32 PM on June 28
Totally get why you'd want people to register, so that is fine, but this makes me crabby because someone already took "jane" and because I don't think I can log in at work.
»» Submitted by »»» jane_ at 5:52 PM on June 28
Sweet, been waiting for this for a long time.
Word.
Why can't you log in at work, Jane?
»» Submitted by »»» matt at 6:10 PM on June 28
If you can access MNSpeak at work, you can log-in.
I'm happy and sad. I'm afraid we will lose people like MPLS Simpleton, but happy we will lose people like binky.
»» Submitted by »»» kc! at 6:20 PM on June 28
@kal
I didn't need to go to Loring Park to be appalled by the price of the tickets. I did that without getting up from my couch.
»» Submitted by »»» yoshi at 6:23 PM on June 28
Will the real Larry Craig please stand up.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 6:46 PM on June 28
Thanks, trolls! This is why we can't have nice things!
Yeah, this kinda blows because of the people at work.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 7:16 PM on June 28
I wonder if Bud will register. Thanks for ruining it for us, you troll.
While I am OK with the registration thing, the 8 character restriction should be expanded. 8 characters is severely limiting especially to those of us with common names. Happily, someone can take Dougnuts... I'm registered!
Jane, I just checked the other Jane, and it was a spammer. So I've deleted that account. You may register as the real Jane.
Now that we straightened that out, who's going to be a real Dick?
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 8:12 PM on June 28
While I am OK with the registration thing, the 8 character restriction should be expanded
I believe I remember simpleton saying that the 8 character limit was the main reason he hadn't registered.
A sign of the times.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 8:18 PM on June 28
meh.
Petitioning also for longer character count in usernames...
I call aliecatisthecoolestchickinminneapolissoyoushoulddateher if that happens!
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 10:14 PM on June 28
Huh...just like everyone else now....
»» Submitted by »»» ironic at 10:16 PM on June 28
I was hoping for just like, 12 characters. That would be enough to satisfy me.
Sandburg, why do you hate America?
Hee!
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 10:35 PM on June 28
In your face, spammer jane!
Thanks, Max.
»» Submitted by »»» jane at 10:36 PM on June 28
I'm trying to appeal to Max's sense of reason!
I just tried to register "BudJr" for fun but it said it was already taken. It looks like he is all set!
I'm confused. A few people have mentioned registration preventing them from accessing MNSpeak at work? Home come?
I'll work on the 8 character thing. I've tried to change that before and it caused a bunch of errors. I think its coded into the database field.
»» Submitted by »»» matt at 11:13 PM on June 28
Registration. I'm in favor, but it'll be interesting to see what happens. Did something in particular trigger this? OR was it a slow burn kind of thing?
jason did you miss all the excitement mid week in the DOJ blacklist post?
That (and the post about finding Keith Kennedy) was probably the straw that broke the camel's back.
okey doke.
»» Submitted by »»» fred at 12:39 AM on June 28
I, for one, am glad that MNspeak's required registration will end racism, stupidity, and troll-dickery everywhere forever and ever. Did you hear me? FOREVER!
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 3:45 AM on June 29
YES WE CAN HAS
I don't care for this at all.
»» Submitted by »»» garcia at 9:41 AM on June 29
I, for one, am glad that MNspeak's required registration will end racism, stupidity, and troll-dickery everywhere forever and ever. Did you hear me? FOREVER!
White people.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 10:05 AM on June 29
My experience is that corporate security policies differ. Some cannot access site like LinkedIn, MySpace. Others can get to the site but not access their account.
This happens frequently on Ning sites too. Can see the main page but not access account or download presentations.
Corporate America screwing the worker again :)
I used the opportunity to change my username...PwrGeek is dead. Long live CINF. Besides, I figured I'm really not so much of a geek as I am a dork. Call it truth in advertising.
»» Submitted by »»» CINF at 10:39 AM on June 29
I can access MNspeak at work, no problem, but we have such a strict internet usage policy, I try to stay below the radar and not log into anything. I guess if they want to catch me on MNspeak, they will do so whether I'm logged in or not. I actually really like my company and the strictness makes total sense, so I'm not even complaining. Fortunately they are probably too busy to check on the likes of me.
Still, I will miss the fake fake Larry Craig. That 8-letter limitation has got to go.
»» Submitted by »»» jane at 11:33 AM on June 29
Could this requirement please wait until MNspeak fixes the bug that forgets your login every five minutes?
»» Submitted by »»» champs at 11:51 AM on June 29
My work story is the same as Jane's.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 12:07 PM on June 29
Can you please provide a definition of "trolling"? I'm specifically wondering how one might be able to distinguish this act from, say, forcefully expressing an opinion that may be (strongly) contrary to the herd's?
Huh.
»» Submitted by »»» rex at 12:39 PM on June 29
Trolling has nothing to do with having an unpopular opinion. It's about posting nasty, insulting comments just to get attention. Calling everyone else a "herd" is a good example, actually.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 12:41 PM on June 29
Sorry. But there is a bit of a herd mentality on this site, IMHO.
Also a tendency to stop legitimate discussion/dialog through the use of illogic, such as the ad hominem attack ("troll," "hater," "stick up the ass," "nasty").
I'm just looking for clarification of the trolling policy, as it seems to be warranted with the recent hubbub.
What was legitimate about binky's "dialog" the last week or so?
I'm not defending binky.
However, the shark circle that surrounded binky last week was certainly no endorsement for the members involved. You only embolden someone like that when you engage and corner him.
Meanwhile, the ad hominem attacks--and ostracism of unpopular opinions-- happens all the time here in the course of ordinary discussion...
But there is a bit of a herd mentality on this site, IMHO.
Why, because some of us have similar views, senses of humor, or don't agree with every single point made? I don't think this is herd mentality, just commonality. Usually, people who's ideas have been disagreed with get all butt hurt about it and throw out that "herd" crap instead of just realizing that some people don't agree with them. That's just as dumb as trolling.
Do I get a coupon for a free smoothie?
»» Submitted by »»» yepnope at 1:28 PM on June 29
Meanwhile, the ad hominem attacks--and ostracism of unpopular opinions-- happens all the time here in the course of ordinary discussion...
Provide specific examples, please.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 1:33 PM on June 29
I'm just looking for a clarification of what constitutes trolling.
Knowing this will reduce the potential for such downward spiraling personal battles as happened last week with binky.
Arthappy, what happened with Binky last week was the culmination of his long history of popping into threads and trying to turn every single one of them into a discussion about gun control, conceal and carry, etc. Binky's MO was to pop in, spout off an opinion (usually when the thread had nothing to do with what he was talking about), spark an argument, refuse to back up his opinions, then resort to name calling, racism, making fun of the mentally disabled, etc. Last week was the shit finally hitting the fan. After however many years (2? more?) of his crap, everyone had enough of it.
In other words, this was not a matter of people suddenly ganging up on someone with an unpopular opinion. This was people standing up to a bully and booting his ass to the curb.
There is your clarification.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 1:42 PM on June 29
While we wait for Matt and/or Max to clarify between trolling and merely expressing an unpopular opinion, I hope arthappy clarifies between herding and merely expressing a popular opinion.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 1:49 PM on June 29
So it takes two years to be considered a troll?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is perhaps a clear policy will help guard against future such events. I understand the gray areas for the most part, but I doubt someone like binky really understands the response to what he was up to. And I suspect this change in policy will not discourage future binkys.
but I doubt someone like binky really understands the response to what he was up to.
I'm sure he does, he just doesn't care.
How on earth would the response not be clear? Max told Binky EXACTLY what he was doing wrong, told him to knock it off, and told him what the consequences would be.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 1:55 PM on June 29
So it takes two years to be considered a troll?
A troll is a troll. Five minutes, two years, doesn't matter. I was just pointing out that there was a long history of his trollish behavior prior to you arriving here.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 1:57 PM on June 29
Good question, Kurtis. Hm. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the tendency to shut down an unpopular or alternative opinion by various non-discoursive/illogical means (applying a derisive/ad hominem label to it, for instance; and mutually supporting this sort of action among the group) is herd mentality.
Responding to the unpopular opinioner express his/her opinion with one's own popular opinion while not attempting to shut out the unpopular idea is "merely expressing a popular opinion."
I think it can. Unless the person is willing to take the time to set up a dummy email account on Yahoo, Excite, etc. (Are you listening Fake Larry Craig?), Max and Matt have a more efficient way to track a person. And it certainly makes it easier for them to ban a commenter. Such a person is going to have to repeatedly set up dummy email accounts in order to keep registering so they can comment.
I'm not trying to argue for reinstating binky.
I'm still fairly new to this venture, so it some times is difficult to parse out what many members have long grown accustomed to. For the most part, Max seems remarkably egalitarian in dealing with what amounts to a massive clusterf*ck of activity. He does a good job, and is good about letting folks know when they step over a line.
I'm just pointing out that there's some gray area and nebulousness in the term "troll." It seems to demand further discussion beyond this change in registration policy.
Good question, Kurtis. Hm. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the tendency to shut down an unpopular or alternative opinion by various non-discoursive/illogical means (applying a derisive/ad hominem label to it, for instance; and mutually supporting this sort of action among the group) is herd mentality.
Responding to the unpopular opinioner express his/her opinion with one's own popular opinion while not attempting to shut out the unpopular idea is "merely expressing a popular opinion."
Again, I ask you to provide specific examples (short of the Binky blowout last week) of this so-called "ad hominem" argument by the "herd."
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 2:05 PM on June 29
Good question, Kurtis. Hm. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the tendency to shut down an unpopular or alternative opinion by various non-discoursive/illogical means (applying a derisive/ad hominem label to it, for instance; and mutually supporting this sort of action among the group) is herd mentality.
You really need to provide at least one specific example. I can certainly think of some instances where that appeared to be the case, but those also happen to be cases where it appeared the "unpopular opinion" commenter initiated it with their own ad hominems.
Sir, this horse, it seems to have been beaten to death.
Accusing people of having a herd mentality is derisive and non-discursive (which is the word you mean.)
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:11 PM on June 29
Specific examples. Okay, then I've really got to run and get some stuff done.
I've seen the term "hater" tossed around often as a way to halt discussion. Also, to a degree (legitimately or no), the term "troll."
But specifically (I mention this at the risk of portraying myself as a shrinking violet, but the personal names I've been called are the ones that most readily spring to mind), I was told I had a "stick up my ass" for simply expressing a contrary opinion here about "memes." I've also been called a "dick," "a nasty drunk" (which may have a basis in truth, come to think of it), and several other names, even though I'm generally careful to keep to discussing the ideas.
Hmm... upon looking it up, discoursive is either the same thing as discursive or its opposite. It didn't even look like a word to me. :scratches head:
Let's just agree that calling people a bunch of witless cows isn't the best way to mount an argument for fair and logical discussions.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:16 PM on June 29
At least I'm discussing behavior and ideas, Kurtis. Not attacking character, which has a tendency to shut down discussion. I'm also willing to be proven wrong. In fact, I'm waiting for the group to prove me wrong...
..troll...
I didn't call anyone a "witless cow." "Herd mentality" refers to a legitimate social phenomenon.
"The term herd mentality is derived from the word 'herd,' meaning group of animals"
"A herd is a large group of animals. The term is usually applied to mammals, particularly ungulates."
From your own link and one link off that one.
And even in the Nietzchian sense, it's insulting and counter-productive to establishing a fair-minded discussion to accuse everyone else of being a herd. So, for that matter, is any claim that begins with "At least I," suggesting that you are taking a high-minded, philosophical stance and everyone else is doing.... well, something else, I guess.
But because your insults and circular arguments and self-righteous presumptions of being of a classier make than the rest of us are being met by eye-rolls across the board, feel free to come to the conclusion that this is exactly what you're talking about. That's usually the next move at this point.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 2:34 PM on June 29
Arthappy, I'll put it even more bluntly than Kurtis. Regarding the examples involving you personally, you tend to come off as a bit of an condescending snob on here. For example, one of my first exposures to you (and forgive me if I don't recall the exact thread), you basically admonished the participants in the thread for the ribald, jokey nature of the conversation and for not discussing things of a more highbrow nature. Like, oh say, art. There is nothing wrong with wanting to talk about art, but that type of behavior is akin to walking into a wild, frat drunken party (I contend that the analogy is apt for many a MNspeak thread), and wagging your finger at the partygoers with a haughty "for shame." How do you expect people to react to you?
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 2:51 PM on June 29
Teh internet is serious bizness.
Kurtis, actually, pointing out the flaws or weaknesses of one's actions or behaviors--which basically comprises the job-description of the critic--is completely discursive and not at all thought-terminating. Case in point, we've just now had a fairly (some would say too) long and somewhat amiable discussion in which you ably contend with the merits of my arguments. This wouldn't have happened if I had indeed called everyone "witless," as you suggested...
WTFMN, you are correct in pointing out that exchange was fairly artless. It was actually one of the (if not the) first time(s) I ever posted something on here. It was a learning experience to be shot down...
I'll point out here, at the risk of being obvious, that you just called me a "snob." This teaches nothing and cuts off all further discussion. A very elegant action on your part.
A very elegant action on your part, which, I'm afraid, is all too much the norm here.
God you are smug. And I mean that in the kindest way possible.
Smug, snob, hater, stick-in-the-ass, dick, condescending: I'm actually none of these things. Though I agree I may be, on occasion, a drunk...
Which makes it all that more important to go back to the original question/topic: what exactly does the label "troll" mean? It could be all too easy for people/the majority to use this label to end any argument they disagree with or find discomfiting. This is in the nature of thought-termination.
I think we've answered this question over and over again for you. I'm starting to think you keep bringing it up to hear yourself talk or you desperately want someone to agree with you. Maybe some do, but frankly, I'm becoming turned off by the whole thing at this point.
No one's answered the question.
From Kurtis:
Trolling has nothing to do with having an unpopular opinion. It's about posting nasty, insulting comments just to get attention. Calling everyone else a "herd" is a good example, actually.
From wtfmn:
Arthappy, what happened with Binky last week was the culmination of his long history of popping into threads and trying to turn every single one of them into a discussion about gun control, conceal and carry, etc. Binky's MO was to pop in, spout off an opinion (usually when the thread had nothing to do with what he was talking about), spark an argument, refuse to back up his opinions, then resort to name calling, racism, making fun of the mentally disabled, etc. Last week was the shit finally hitting the fan. After however many years (2? more?) of his crap, everyone had enough of it.
There are a couple of answers for you.
Furthermore, you could always just look it up. Troll according to Wiki.
arthappy, I'll give you an example. I commented a few times on arts related posts, only to have a few trollish types immediately jump in with hostile (and often meanly sexist) comments. I stopped trying, and I've noticed that those posts tend to have few comments. I can be combative from time to time, but I don't really like to have to face regular hazing each time I comment. A few commenters have made this site unpleasant for a lot of people for a long time.
»» Submitted by »»» Joanna at 4:01 PM on June 29
I'll point out here, at the risk of being obvious, that you just called me a "snob." This teaches nothing and cuts off all further discussion. A very elegant action on your part
You wanted to know how to avoid being insulted. We told you how, and it's unbelievably simple -- stop insulting us. Participate in the conversation instead of passive aggressively telling everyone they are witless cows. And no, you have never actually called anyone witless cows, but your attitude pretty much does it for you.
You may not believe you are condescending, but you are, and clearly I am not the only one who believes that to be true.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 4:02 PM on June 29
Binky did not become a troll until he deliberately started showing up in threads to be disruptive. Until that point, I never deleted any of his comments, and would often try to argue his points. But when he started using derogatory language for developmentally disabled people, and when he started arguing in threads just for the sake of annoying people (signified by him signing his name "Binky loves to annoy the liberals, or some such nonsense), then he had crossed the line into deliberate descriptiveness. And then he sprinted across that line and went for a 20-mile-jog in disruptionville.
I will give people plenty of warning when I think they're behavior has gotten a little outre, and I give people a lot of leeway, in general. Most of our most negative and unpleasant comments come from unregistered users, and this should cut down on that.
Believe it or not, arthappy, most people here are not too quick to call someone a troll, and there actually is a pretty large diversity of opinions here.
Thanks for the clarification, Max. So warnings by you are a requisite for being officially deemed a "troll." (I don't mean to continue begging the question; I have to admit I ignored most of his postings, and so have little understanding here...)
I'm of the opinion that a diversity of opinion is a good thing. Course, that's very self-serving since I often seem to find myself with ideas that conflict with the seeming majority.
Alie, your link was broken.
joanna, I sincerely hope I never wrote one of the comments you took as hostile (or, even worse, sexist). If so, I apologize, because that certainly never was, or never is, my intention.
Here's a phrase I'd like to enter into the local lexicon folks, before I take a hiatus from all of the drama: "Agree to disagree."
Yes, there will be plenty of warnings. Mostly, trolling is deliberately engaging in abusive or disruptive behavior. And there isn't that much, but one really determined troll can really mess up a good conversation, and can drive people who sincerely want to be part of MnSpeak away.
Sometimes the word is thrown around a little too freely. If I don't think someone is trolling, I will let people know.
No, arthappy, these were stupid comments by folks using obvious pseuds. Tiresome namecalling, not difference of opinion.
»» Submitted by »»» Joanna at 4:33 PM on June 29
Huh. Wikipedia actually has some things to say about trolling that somewhat validate my points today. (Thanks Internet, and thanks Aliecat; the emphases below are mine. I still suggest Matt and Max that this may warrant further discussion and policy-setting...)
The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.
Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
Frequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.
Recently, many websites have openly welcomed and encouraged trolling amongst their members.
No, arthappy, these were stupid comments by folks using obvious pseuds. Tiresome namecalling, not difference of opinion.
I think my viewpoint on this site, which seems to be getting me in trouble on occasion, is very similar to yours. I'm fighting for the right to occasionally be able to discuss arts and cultural topics in a serious way. I hope you'll continue to comment on arts related topics as they come up...
wheeeee!!!!! we has registration, and it feels good.
I think I might be considered a light troll, although I have not been accused of such, however I do tend to screw with a thread now and then by throwing out Teucers mom, well...not literally, but I'm sure someone might, you know, thow her out.
I did have to drop the 2 when I registered, but that's ok. I like it. I feel kinda growed up now.
»» Submitted by »»» oldfarts at 4:48 PM on June 29
I tried throwing out Teucer's mom, but I ended up slipping a disk. Bitch is HEAVY!
oh look, I have little red arrows pointing at me.
cool.
»» Submitted by »»» oldfarts at 4:53 PM on June 29
so does that mean she's still there? make her clean your closets after she wakes up in there, after all you shouldn't be doing any house work after slipping a disk alie.
»» Submitted by »»» oldfarts at 5:02 PM on June 29
ok I'll bring it back to the point of the thread
I miss my 2.
»» Submitted by »»» oldfarts at 5:09 PM on June 29
Sir, this horse, it seems to have been beaten to death.
That's never stopped us from riding teucer's mom. Speaking of a herd mentality...
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 5:22 PM on June 29
I may regret posting this but I cannot find a hammer to hit my hand with at the moment...
Regarding trolls it is a subjective thing. But like a duck most people can see one when it shows up. Banning one person every blue moon tells me (my opinion) there is not enough banning going on. A free site that does not require signing in to post is going to attract some trolls. Thats part of the deal, good and bad.
I am a lurker but very rarely post here for a few reasons.
One, it was the trolls.
Two, is from Alies quote:
Why, because some of us have similar views, senses of humor, or don't agree with every single point made? I don't think this is herd mentality, just commonality.
I completely agree but because I differ on the similar views and commonality many/most on this site share I sit back and watch.
Let me stress, there is nothing wrong with commonality. But it also needs to be understood that when one person differs and then gets multiple responses challenging the view one gets the opinion of why bother.
Three, you all are a rather close group as far as online sites go. You know all the inside jokes and most have met each other (some of you have said for better and worse). So for the new kids (not to be confused with the 90s group who should never have thought about coming back) it is hard to figure out where to jump in and if the hard landing is worth it.
I think you can have an opposing view as long as you're not a complete dick about it...unless it's humorously worded dickish opposing view...
Okay, I'm not sure that even makes sense, but I was trying to say that people are more willing to take an opposing viewpoint seriously if you're not being a douchebag troll.
Mnhedhnt: Typically, it's not what you say, but how you say it.
Sometimes you have to take the risk and jump in the water.
The inside jokes, for the most part, come from conversations over a peroid of time (Teucer's mom, bacon, haiku's, some of the bawdier humor, etc.) You'll get it if you stick around and I hope you do.
I think many, including myself, lurk for a long time and at some point make a comment. Then your comments become more frequent and suddenly someone starts making fun of your mom.
So now I double dog dare you to tell me I'm wrong and see what happens.
Just Joshin'.
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 7:01 PM on June 29
Long overdue.
Bravo!
Here's how to tell if you're being a troll:
Are you confident you are not a troll?
You are not a troll.
Are you unsure of whether you are being a troll?
You are not a troll.
Are you confident you are a troll?
You are a troll.
Trolls know they're trolling.
They all do.
End scene.
»» Submitted by »»» Bixby at 7:52 PM on June 29
"Sorry. But there is a bit of a herd mentality on this site, IMHO."
I don't think I've ever seen that on this site. Quite the opposite. There could be a white out blizzard blanketing the metro and if someone makes this observation, another will undoubtedly question it.
That said, some people will agree with each other. But that isn't a bad thing though, right?
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 8:18 PM on June 29
It can feel like a herd, because so many of the people on here are of like mind politically. So the political discussions can be herd-like. I tend to avoid them.
In other areas, I agree with yoder. And I do think people throw the "troll" term around a bit loosely. You're allowed to be sarcastic and mean if you're one of the "group." But that mirrors offline life: when you know people, you give them a longer leash. When you don't, you don't.
Troll: Someone with an opposing point of view who consistently wins the arguments thereby irritating the robotic regulars.
Maz
Mayor
Troll Rapids, MN
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:44 PM on June 29
It can feel like a herd, because so many of the people on here are of like mind politically.
If you're interested, here's the sioux psychological assessment (political ideology test):
Which animal do you most closely identify with?
a. eagle
b. turtle
c. wolf
d. buffalo
e. bear
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 9:00 PM on June 29
"Which animal do you most closely identify with?
a. eagle
b. turtle
c. wolf
d. buffalo
e. bear"
After the large omelette for breakfast, cheese curds, gyro and large pop at Loring park today, I'm identifying with the buffalo right now.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 9:20 PM on June 29
I think you can have an opposing view as long as you're not a complete dick about it...unless it's humorously worded dickish opposing view...
That sounds wildly open to subjective interpretaion . . . but maybe that's why I stick my head in here now and then.
»» Submitted by »»» octane at 9:22 PM on June 29
To answer Maz's question, I'm a billy goat gruff.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 9:38 PM on June 29
I'm sure there are a few guys this weekend that consider themselves bears.
And hopefully, not too many beards.
I'll bet maz is a bear.
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 10:14 PM on June 29
Based on his whining earlier in this thread, I would say Maz is something hung from a cross.
Yes, the problem is that Maz is being crucified for having an unpopular opinion. The opinion that popping into threads and calling liberals socialists is good conversation.
Aww, he looks so cute up there.
a. eagle
b. turtle
c. wolf
d. buffalo
e. bear
I've always felt I was a coquettish lemur trapped in a buffalo's body.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 10:21 PM on June 29
Oh man, I would have thought you would have worked in a poop joke with one of the choices being "turtle," wtfmn.
»» Submitted by »»» aliecat at 10:25 PM on June 29
This is sexy, ascots for everyone.
»» Submitted by »»» JACC at 11:11 PM on June 29
Based on his whining earlier in this thread, I would say Maz is something hung from a cross.
Arthappy, take note. There are no such comments from me on this thread.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 5:53 AM on June 30
Now with the registration requirements, we can't be notified when comments are added to a post? Or is that unrelated?
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 6:20 AM on June 30
Arthappy, take note. There are no such comments from me on this thread.
I wondered about that. I'd like to point out that I raised these questions not because I myself have ever been accused of trolling. I wasn't whining (about being called names or any other thing). I raised the issue because I believe in open discussion, and the proposed solution seemed like a rubber stamp that no one was questioning.
Correction: The questioners of this policy in this post were concerned only about how it affected them personally (not being able to post at work). I was alone in raising the notion that throwing around discussion ending epithets (like "troll"), and establishing a lockstep policy that encouraged such behavior, would have an overall harmful effect on free discussion here.
Maz, I know I'm a turtle, but would rather be more of a wolf. They seem like they are pretty bad-ass and independent, and aren't screwed if they end up on their backs. What does it mean? Also, it's kind of depressing that even the Lakota have personality tests.
I'm 1/10th but doesn't do me any good-- my oldest relatives pretty much refused to talk about it while they were alive, so I don't have any tribal affiliation or depressing stories about the "rez" or schools or whatnot.
But there are people who have accurately been identified as trolls. Just because the term has been misused does not mean it is never an accurate description. As in everything else, there is no one well defined line that one must cross to become a troll. And since there is a gray area, people will see things differently.
»» Submitted by »»» yoder at 7:46 AM on June 30
But there are people who have accurately been identified as trolls. Just because the term has been misused does not mean it is never an accurate description. As in everything else, there is no one well defined line that one must cross to become a troll. And since there is a gray area, people will see things differently.
True, I agree with you. I was just raising the question in relation to a policy change. The response to my question(s) bore out a lot of my concerns, actually...
Maz, I know I'm a turtle, but would rather be more of a wolf. What does it mean?
Don't be too sure, sandburg. Turtles are self-sufficient (they carry their home around with them) and are highly respected for that and their patience. Wolves are teachers and collaborators with traditional family values.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 8:02 AM on June 30
ok I'll keep signed in.
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 8:14 AM on June 30
first off:
secondly,
uh, maz ... don't you mean bison and not buffalo?
bison live in america, where your people come from, buffalo live in africa.
»» Submitted by »»» wayne at 8:24 AM on June 30
AH: This isn't a new issue, contrary to what you may believe. The question of registration and "what defines a troll" have been discussed a number of times on MNspeak.
You assume rubber stamp, but in reality, you're just late to the game.
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 8:42 AM on June 30
"The response to my question(s) bore out a lot of my concerns, actually..."
A little bit behind schedule, but I knew this was coming.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 8:49 AM on June 30
There is no change in policy. Trolling has always been discouraged on this site, and people who were spammers or intentionally disruptive have been banned in the past, although only after much warning.
Arthappy, generally it is a good idea to actually get to know a community a little before making a series of snap judgments about it, which you have done repeatedly in this thread. You've only been participating actively on MnSpeak for a few weeks, and you've already decided its participants move in sheeplike lockstep and are quick to declare anyone they disagree with to be trolls. This simply is not the case. The few people who regularly get identified as trolls -- and there are very few -- do so because over a number of years they have regularly engaged in abusive behavior toward other MnSpeakers.
Most of the day-to-day, fly by abuse has come from unregistered users, or, sometimes, from registered users who log out and then use pseudonyms to write things they would never want their actual name associated with. This remedies that problem. Full stop. This is not some campaign to get rid of people whose viewpoints don't fit the norm. And, again, I think you would know that if you actually got to know the site, instead of making a series of public presumptions about it.
I caved! Mpls Simpleton is now Dougie_D. Alert the microcelebrity press.
»» Submitted by »»» Dougie_D at 9:15 AM on June 30
The registration stinks.
It limits our creativity by removing an avenue or additional channel of snark...ie "spellzgood" or "fake larry craig"....what is the internetz without snark?
It locks people out, the good and the bad.
Yet another freakin profile- OpenID FTW!
It probably will make this site more cliquey than it already is.
....all said I don't think its the right direction but it's not my site so I'll accept it.
»» Submitted by »»» ryanl at 9:28 AM on June 30
I would hope that Fake Larry Craig would create a Fake Larry Craig account.
Fair enough, Max...
Yet another freakin profile- OpenID FTW!
OpenID support would be awesome.
»» Submitted by »»» wtfmn at 9:36 AM on June 30
I'm just happy to see a feature upgraded on MNSpeak!
Arthappy is right to a certain degree...
Mnspeak is primarily a place to talk about Jucy Lucies, not politics, unless Paul Welstone was your demi-god.
On the thread, I guess the registration is a good idea, especially after Binky's racist garbage the other day. Besides, I was rather tired of hearing about Kevin's bowel habits and his frequent need to vomit.
»» Submitted by »»» baker at 10:45 AM on June 30
I actually will miss the frequent updates on Kevin's delicate constitution. Oh, that guy! You never know if he's going to be frisky or spewin'!
»» Submitted by »»» andyst at 10:47 AM on June 30
I'm just happy to see a feature upgraded on MNSpeak!
You gonna take that crap from him, max?
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 10:50 AM on June 30
You're right, andy, this is a real blow to Web 3.0, which I invented, whereby users incorporate Twitter-esqe updates into their usernames. It was going to be huge. Maybe Max can conjur up a system whereby you can expound on your user name at will, sort of like the little updates in Myspace.
»» Submitted by »»» kwatt at 10:52 AM on June 30
Exactly. And I feel really anxious reading this from you, because I have no context for it. Are you saying these words friskily, or draped over a toilet? There's just no way to know.
»» Submitted by »»» andyst at 10:59 AM on June 30
Mood icons! Mood icons! Come on everyone, chant and bang your coffee cups on your desks. Mood icons! Mood icons!
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 11:04 AM on June 30
Could this requirement please wait until MNspeak fixes the bug that forgets your login every five minutes? -- For real, yo.
Two things:
1. I'm rather amazed that no one here is complaining about the registration requirement. Although if you have to register to comment and you don't want to register, the complaining won't show up here. I'll give it a couple more days.
2. Arthappy, you're just having your day in the MNspeak sun. Everyone here goes through a time when they're convinced everyone else here hates them. Some decide it's worth it, some don't. It'll pass. Choose your battles. Also, there's a distinction between "herd" and "community."
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 11:43 AM on June 30
I was going to complain about something having to do with the registration process, but then it ended up being a non-issue, so...that's...why...I'm..typing it here. Good story, e.
I can't tell if I'm being made fun of or not. It's cool either way.
Yeah, complain all you want about the registration process. I just thought there'd be a bit more railing against the requirement to register in the first place. And there's not. No big.
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 12:00 PM on June 30
ericam: I hate the idea of registration, but Matt & Max came up with what I think is the best solution/compromise.
I would have prolly been more vocal, but after last weeks epic meltdown, it seems like the lesser of all evils.
»» Submitted by »»» Cat at 12:12 PM on June 30
Oh, don't worry, I'm here!
If there was more room in the name field, I would be FakeLarryCraig. Does anyone know how to fix that?
»» Submitted by »»» LarryCrg at 12:20 PM on June 30
ericam - I could never make fun of you! We have the same name!
Though I do often make fun of myself, so sorry for any confusion.
A'ight then. We coo'. ;)
»» Submitted by »»» ericam at 1:04 PM on June 30
Choose your battles. Also, there's a distinction between "herd" and "community."
I thought fighting for a free and open discussion forum was a pretty good battle to pick...
Say what you will, I still believe there's a widespead tendency on this site toward groupthink (see that, I zigged away from the herd mentality thing just when you thought I would zag; suck it bovine, whoever you may be!)
This site had more "we coo's" when Rex was here.
»» Submitted by »»» justpbob at 1:05 PM on June 30
That's a strange accusation to keep leveling against us, arthappy, without ever backing it up with examples.
Accusation?
More of an occasional observation...
And again, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
So, if you want "free and open discussion" are you okay with the hurtful, racist crap that was on this site last week? I'm not. I'm sure Max and Matt aren't either, and it is their site. Go to the Strib if you want that, please.
»» Submitted by »»» kc! at 1:11 PM on June 30
All right. But I suppose I think what you see as "groupthink" I see as people who have come to independent, and often pretty carefully considered, decisions about things, and happen to agree. And I guarantee you that there is not one viewpoint that three MnSpeakers have that two don't disagree with.
moo!
»» Submitted by »»» lunch! at 1:13 PM on June 30
Baa...
AH, if you believe there is not open and free discussion here, why do you stay? It is obvious based on your previous 20+ comments in this thread you think people are treated unfairly. I don't understand at all your point.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 1:15 PM on June 30
Seems like arthappy is just a little bit argumentative, manifested by acting deliberately obtuse about this "troll" issue. Unless he really IS obtuse, which I doubt. I know a couple people who do this, ask questions in the guise of an open discussion but with something mildly aggressive about it. I just don't respond and they get off that kick.
I'd be a little annoyed, but remembered we have some other argumentative types around here who are regulars and have been here a while and what the hell, arthappy can fit in here somewhere. He's also pretty funny and generally cheerful.
Granted, I'm biased b/c he invented a drink named after my blueberry ginger pie.
»» Submitted by »»» jane at 1:20 PM on June 30
Say what you will, I still believe there's a widespead tendency on this site toward groupthink (see that, I zigged away from the herd mentality thing just when you thought I would zag; suck it bovine, whoever you may be!)
Accusation?
More of an occasional observation...
And again, I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Maybe I'm just oversensitive and overtired today, but that'a fairly accusatory statement. And more than just occasional.
Is it possible that it seems like everyone agrees because, at least personally, if someone says something I don't agree with I don't feel the need to put my two cents in every single time. I just sit back in my chair and think to myself, "Tish Tosh there goes another moron with an internet connection" If there is a discussion that I agree with I'm much more likely to contribute than if there is a hatefest going on.
I do like not having to type mnspeak everytime.
»» Submitted by »»» Dougie_D at 1:23 PM on June 30
AH, if you believe there is not open and free discussion here, why do you stay? It is obvious based on your previous 20+ comments in this thread you think people are treated unfairly. I don't understand at all your point.
Good question. I don't have an answer to that at present...
I don't defend racist commenters.
As for people being treated unfairly, I have, I think, been treated rather uncharitablly for raising a policy question, which was, I assumed, part of the intention of this forum topic. Unfortunately, I made the strategic error of using a word deemed immediately judgmental by a number of people, and for that I was personally attacked, which of course got my dander up in return. That was my mistake. One of these days I'll learn...
Well, it's the internet, not cradle school, ya know.
Can you please provide a definition of "trolling"? I'm specifically wondering how one might be able to distinguish this act from, say, forcefully expressing an opinion that may be (strongly) contrary to the herd's?
Yeah, I would say there is a tactical error in asking a question of a community that also contains an insult to that community. Hard to expect a civil response.
If a number of people deem it judgemental, don't you think maybe there is something there?
You're complaining about being treated uncharitable, yet just last week a number of us were encouraging you to join a meet-up. You consistantly mock other for their opinions on art with no real basis for your attacks other than what appears to be snobbery.
You strike me as a person who likes to complain and will not be happy doing otherwise.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 1:30 PM on June 30
oh come on guys, it's nothing to be ashamed of. So what if many of you stick together on this site, ganging up on those that may have differing opinions than the group majority? It's human nature.
I think Art's comments are not that people think similarily here, it's that those who think differently are often collectively ostracized and ridiculed.
Arthappy's observation is not from thin air.
»» Submitted by »»» baker at 1:30 PM on June 30
*consistently
I'm all worked up now and my typing can't keep up with my thoughts. Excuse the poor grammar and spelling.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 1:32 PM on June 30
Well, it's the internet, not cradle school, ya know.
I agree with you. I haven't complained about being called a "dick" or any other name except in the context of this discussion--when I was directly asked to give examples. I really don't care much what people think I am, or am not, but I am concerned about free and open discussion. As you say, it's the internet, not, um, cradle school. So alternative viewpoints may occasionally rise up and should, in the best cases, be tolerated--within limits. My only concern were that these limits be clearly stated by site administrators, especially as they make changes to site policy (changes which, in their own words, they were "hesitant" about making).
You smell bad, Baker.
Kidding. Actually, I would ask that we try to keep conversations as vivil as possible. There is a tendency to call people assholes, or whatever, and I think it's not especially condusive to good conversation. Although I have said this before, and always try to gently moderate when people seem to be just insulting each other.
Perhaps there's a grain of truth to that baker, but how often is that ridicule totally one sided? I don't think the "hatefests" come out of nowhere or are a product of "groupthink". Opposing viewpoints are often dumped on threads in a way that suggests that person believes we're all stupid. That's usually when we turn on the charm.
»» Submitted by »»» Ang at 1:34 PM on June 30
Your perspectives seems to be that you're some lone crusader for fair and high-minded discussion and people are just being cruel to you in some real-life reenactment of the Allegory of the Cave, with arthapless as the persecuted lone bearer of greater truths than the mob has reckoned.
My perspective is that you talk a lot more about how everyone else is failing you than actually mounting the serious and high-minded discussion you aspire to. Abandon the former and take up the latter as your M.O. and you might find people more hospitable.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 1:34 PM on June 30
I really don't care much what people think I am, or am not, but I am concerned about free and open discussion.
Yeah, OK, we get it.
You were being a belligerent drunk when I called you that. Which I followed up with a :)
Most cases people realize to take a comment like that with a grain of salt. It's a public message board. Set up your own if you want to install strict rules and definitions.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 1:35 PM on June 30
There are no limits to what opinions you can state on this site, ArtHappy, so long as you are civil about it. Maz may complain about being deleted, but I have never removed any of his comments because I have disagreed with them. Only because he will occasionally lapse into abusiveness.
If I disagree with someone, I simply make my case, or, if I feel they are mistating something, ask them to back it up. Just because users sometimes call each other dicks, it should be assumed that this is the same thing as moderating.
If a number of people deem it judgemental, don't you think maybe there is something there?
You're complaining about being treated uncharitable, yet just last week a number of us were encouraging you to join a meet-up. You consistantly mock other for their opinions on art with no real basis for your attacks other than what appears to be snobbery.
You strike me as a person who likes to complain and will not be happy doing otherwise.
On the first point above, I just admitted I made a crucial error in using the word "herd." My other points, I think, were valid.
Meanwhile, the other points you make are not true.
I'm not sure if that last comment was vivil enough for Max, but I am only trying to help.
»» Submitted by »»» kurtis at 1:36 PM on June 30
Nothing is vivil enough for Max.
»» Submitted by »»» Ang at 1:37 PM on June 30
They were perfectly vivil.
Meanwhile, the other points you make are not true.
And neither were most of yours. Even steven I guess.
»» Submitted by »»» mb21 at 1:40 PM on June 30
My perspective is that you talk a lot more about how everyone else is failing you than actually mounting the serious and high-minded discussion you aspire to. Abandon the former and take up the latter as your M.O. and you might find people more hospitable.
These are very lucid insights. It's hard to do what you suggest--in short bursts of 1-3 sentences--on this site. Esp. since often a single word can distract from an entire point.
I will say, though, that I have long attempted to do this in the critical writing I have done in myriad publications outside of this site.
I, for one, am constantly being abused here for my unpopular opinion that the film Cradle School III: Here Comes the Tickle Monster is the superior entry in the series.
»» Submitted by »»» andyst at 1:42 PM on June 30
Dude, that whole series is child porn. That's always been our problem with it.
I, for one, am constantly being abused here for my unpopular opinion that the film Cradle School III: Here Comes the Tickle Monster is the superior entry in the series.
Andy, you're such a philistine! Everyone knows the second film in that series is far superior. I mean, come on: Heather Locklear!
God. Help me!
Do I have some sort of disease that keeps me posting comments on Mnspeak?
It's pretty infectuous.
And by "philistine," Andy, you know I mean "I love you," right?
It is not child porn. Max, come on, you're a tasteful guy. Surely you're not suggesting Sir Ralph Richardson's performance in Cradle School II: Mission to Moscow was anything less than the performance of a lifetime. So what if he was wearng diapers and being burped by Heather Locklear?
»» Submitted by »»» andyst at 1:48 PM on June 30
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